School children should receive free bus travel before pensioners?

I posted earlier in the thread. There are 3 state secondary schools in my town. One is around 111 in the Scottish league table. My old school is around 200 and the other school is in the bottom six. If a parent wanted exceptional results -they would send their kids to private school. Because these schools don't outperform private schools. Telling someone that they are wrong just because their area isn't the same as yours doesn't mean they are wrong.

Yes, in some cases it takes more but in other cases it can make a real difference. It takes more than a bus pass to completely eradicate pensioner poverty or any other kind of poverty.

Also you are completely wrong. There are definitely state schools have exceptional results and outperform the majority of private schools.

You are trying to suggest an element of hopelessness that isn't actually true. Statistics like this prove the point:

"Of the 50 places with the highest social mobility, 42 were in London, where children travel free on public transport throughout their education. While many factors contribute to London’s success, free travel gives children access to the full opportunities of their city in a way that many others simply do not have*

Transport is key to social mobility.

Yes, in some cases it takes more but in other cases it can make a real difference. It takes more than a bus pass to completely eradicate pensioner poverty or any other kind of poverty.

Also you are completely wrong. There are definitely state schools have exceptional results and outperform the majority of private schools.

You are trying to suggest an element of hopelessness that isn't actually true. Statistics like this prove the point:

"Of the 50 places with the highest social mobility, 42 were in London, where children travel free on public transport throughout their education. While many factors contribute to London’s success, free travel gives children access to the full opportunities of their city in a way that many others simply do not have*

Transport is key to social mobility.

I don't know why every discussion goes back to your mum. Obviously I can't comment on her specific scenario as I don't know her but it's a fact that most pensioners haven't paid enough into the system to pay for the benefits they get out of it. This is a fact. You have to include NHS treatment, pensions, WFA... Basically every interaction that they have with a state funded organisation.

Again, what does 'fair' share even mean? You imply that there is a definitive amount of tax that each of us should be paying to be fair but it doesn't work like that. It's all subjective and based on loads of value judgements. For example, if I go out for a meal with my friend who is poor should I pay more of the bill because I have more money? Some would say yes, some would say no. How much more would be appropriate? Should I pay the entire bill or a bigger proportion? Don't individuals have a responsibility to fund the majority of their own costs themselves wherever they can? Why doesn't this principal extend from the private goods and services to services provided by the state? Why is it morally acceptable to live a whole lifetime with the expectation that you should be subsidised by everyone else? Some people have tried their best and been unable to escape poverty but many haven't even tried. It's all a lot more complex than you like to portray.

Not everyone takes up the free bus pass. The same as not everyone under 22 in Scotland takes up that bus pass either. So basically -if we means test pensioner bus passes and give free bus passes to kids it's going to ensure that kids are mobile enough to go to a better school and get a better education? There are kids from poor families who leave school as soon as they are legally able. It takes much more than a bus pass to solve generational poverty.

That's not how it's working in Scotland just now. As I said earlier in the thread in some areas there better performing state schools but if a parent wants exceptional results -they have to go private.

Previous generations have run up the credit card and it is hardly unexpected that young generations now are angry and resentful. Nobody is saying that older people always had it easy, but the reality is much of the debt we accrued has benefited them and they will be paying very little back compared to younger generations.

Much of what we are spending now on pensioners is unsustainable. Many economists and international bodies repeatedly tell us this and yet few old people are willing to recognise and accept this. Clinging to the triple lock when it has been proven to be unviable in the long term. Clinging to free bus passes when many can afford their own.

If they haven't paid enough into the system for all this stuff then of course they should feel grateful. Most pensioners haven't paid enough into the system and expect a whole raft of benefits and confessions. Great, but don't expect those who are actually contributing, and often contributing a great deal, to accept overly high tax bills when they can and will move elsewhere. Ultimately this means less money to fund the precious bus passes and everything else.

You are so hung up on the moral argument, you can't see how practically it doesn't work if people can just leave the country.

Previous generations have run up the credit card and it is hardly unexpected that young generations now are angry and resentful. Nobody is saying that older people always had it easy, but the reality is much of the debt we accrued has benefited them and they will be paying very little back compared to younger generations.

Much of what we are spending now on pensioners is unsustainable. Many economists and international bodies repeatedly tell us this and yet few old people are willing to recognise and accept this. Clinging to the triple lock when it has been proven to be unviable in the long term. Clinging to free bus passes when many can afford their own.

No, that's not my argument. I actually think free bus passes should ideally be means tested which would actually bring about the opposite scenario where those who have paid enough into the system are least likely to be eligible. It isn't 'fair' but ultimately giving free bus passes to people that can afford to pay isn't a good use of taxpayer money. So many people blindly insist that mens testing is too difficult/expensive so we are stuck having to select whole age groups like we do with pensioners now.

I agree about personal responsibility but don't you see that the child is personally not responsible for their own financial situation? You and I chose to have two children as this was the sensible thing to do financially but those born into irresponsible families are there for no fault of their own. I also don't think we should be financially rewarding irresponsible parents for having more children than they can afford so I don't think our views are enormously different.

I do think though that direct intervention for children born into these poor families is important otherwise they will be trapped in a poverty cycle. This is why I support giving them free bus travel to school. We know education and a good one at that, is one of very few mechanisms that can assist children in getting out of poverty and building a better future for themselves.

Poor pensioners are not the most vulnerable group in society at all. Poor children are. They have virtually no autonomy over their lives and have had no opportunity to improve the situation they happen to have been born into. They are also twice as likely to be living in poverty. By the time you get to old age then most of us have had the chance to further their situations. Especially the current generation of pensioners who are the richest ever. Both my grandparents came from poor families and are now financially comfortable from working blue collar jobs.

What is the system supposed to cover? Theoretically it should be covering a lot more than it is now as our health system is often providing a poor service, transport is unreliable, education system is patchy, social care is underfunded SEN costs are cripplingly local governments. Fundamentally the state has a whole host of unlimited costs and only limited means to raise the money to meet them. It's all very well imagining that the super rich should fund all this but in fact they often just leave which generates an even bigger gap for the rest of us to fill.

So tell me, if the tail wags the dog and tax is simply set at the level to meet all these needs, are you happy to pay 60% tax yourself? Perhaps it needs to be even higher. At some point, even you would suggest it's ridiculous and simply not value for money for the individual. Yes, most want to contribute to the greater good but after you're paying £300 million plus and it still isn't enough I can see why people get fed up and leave. Ultimately we as a country lose. Not them as indidvial. We need to be very careful that we aren't cutting off our nose to spite our face.

This.

Why should people need to feel grateful for having a bus pass at the age of 60 or at state pension age. There have been concessionary fares for pensioners in Scotland long before the bus pass was brought in. It just standardised things and made it easier to travel between different areas.

If they haven't paid enough into the system for all this stuff then of course they should feel grateful. Most pensioners haven't paid enough into the system and expect a whole raft of benefits and confessions. Great, but don't expect those who are actually contributing, and often contributing a great deal, to accept overly high tax bills when they can and will move elsewhere. Ultimately this means less money to fund the precious bus passes and everything else.

You are so hung up on the moral argument, you can't see how practically it doesn't work if people can just leave the country.

That's bound to happen in some cases, I agree. But it doesn't change my opinion. Personally I don't consider the British public to be 'greedy' for wanting the tax system to cover the things it's supposed to cover.

And tbh reading some of the comments on this thread from posters based in England about why pensioners shouldn't get benefits whilst their children should, is why I am SOOO glad and proud to live in Scotland.
I have NEVER heard people here heap the bitter, divisive comments on our older Scottish citizens that some of the (English) commenters here on MN make about pensioners in England!

My mum doesn't drive and never has. I don't drive either but even if I could I wouldn't be able to afford to buy a car and run it. Some people obviously can't drive for medical reasons