To think friendship is hard for childless/childfree women

People are not there to get something from them, do you offer to babysit do you get involved with the kids,

Gosh you sound like hard work i want friends but dont ask anything of me, i want friends but they dont come see me, i want friends but they expect me to pay to do things, i joined meetup but all the men came onto me, it doesnt actually sound like you do want friends at all

Yes - I have three kids and fully agree. I don't engage with the description of all consuming, not even a moment to breathe 24/7 miserable martyrdom of motherhood on this thread at all. I think there's a degree of helping yourself that needs to be done - I had patches of feeling sorry for myself and lonely when my kids were younger but again - friendship is about reciprocity, not about one person running around after another.

I think your late 20s/30s can be really hard with friendships for all women tbh, it depends on the situation.

The women I saw regularly in my 20s are all child free and I rarely see them these days. But it's as much a change in interests as anything else. I'm open to going for dinner, out for coffee, gigs, theatres, a local walk, craft markets or if be more than happy to do a few days away. But they tend to be in a unit with their partners, don't like kids and just want to go to the pub (which I will do sometimes, but I haven't got the time for the hangover). It's tricky because as much as I like their partners, mine will often be at home. And sometimes it would be nice to see them alone. Now my kids are older it is much easier to do child free stuff but i end up doing it with friends who happen to be mothers.

I do think a lot of people lose their identity and their ability to have a conversation about anything else when they have a baby. I've tended to find that it returns gradually (for those that don't make motherhood a whole identity) but it is a period where it definitely can feel like you are on different pages.

From observation, gyms that do group sessions, WI or hobby based activities are likely to have people who are open for friendship to grow organically. Or as someone said, a dog. I think for a lot of people things do get lonlier with age.

Also, asking for a coffee outside a group activity isn't a request to become best mates, but it's a start. I'm sure lots of people would like to be asked.

I just don't think having small children is a reason to suddenly not bother with your friends. Having less time or being less flexible, absolutely, but nobody is that busy that they can't make time for a half hour phone call once a week, or meet for a quick coffee once every other month.

I also think it's quite arrogant to expect to just be able to pick up where you left off when it comes to friendship - it's a two-way street. You can't just spend years focussing on your kids and then expect your friends to still be there when you come out the other side.

Isn’t it?

My child free ( and partner free) friend basically did all the arranging - I hosted, we both bought wine and snacks every week.

She has more friends and makes new friends quicker than anyone I know. But she’s a people person. Knew all the neighbours, talk to people in bar, chat to anyone at events.

But you don’t get it! They don’t even have time to breathe!

But they do have time to be on mumsnet all day.

I think finding the people who want to hang out with takes some persistence. People with young children are really busy so that can make it harder. I do have a child but older now and lots of my friends have young children. Trial & error wirh groups and I found a v good one.

I am pregnant now but I am the last of my friends to have a baby so I understand a little of where you are coming from. It’s all consuming and the focus is on them, their huge life transition and the new baby. I managed to actually strengthen my friendships but it did take a lot of effort on my part for not a lot of return in the immediacy. Some of which is fair enough - makes sense to travel to them when they have a baby, I paid for lunch as they were on Mat leave, I organised the group get togethers as I had more time.

I’m not sure how it would have played out if I hadn’t gotten pregnant - I’m definitely “one of them” now there is a baby on the way. It’s easier for them to see what the friendship will look like in the long term I guess.

I’m hoping I receive the love back that I gave when my baby is here but I have heard stories of this not happening when you are the last of your group because people just have less bandwidth.

I don’t know what to suggest - making friends as an adult is really hard.

I get it. I'm childfree in part fot the reason that I couldn't face that little time to myself and levels of overstimulating.
That's why I've been more than happy to pick up with friends now tjat their kids are older again, unlike some previous posters I don't feel used, I fully see they've actually got time and headspace now.

Exactly - why on earth would anyone want to subject themselves to such stress and overwhelm that they can't maintain any of their friendships or do anything beyond (as PP said) "staring into the distance". Sounds horrific to me.

At soft play - no.
I am a mum and I leave my child with my husband when I meet friends.
Unless all your mates are single mums with zero childcare options they should too.

Based on some of these replies, it makes you wonder why some people had children if they are so hard work they can't fit anything else into their lives.

Totally agree with the above. Every word.

I don’t recognise this absolute focus on daily survival at all. Now admittedly I don’t have children. But I have friends who do. In fact pretty much all my friends do. I never hear this absolute martyrdom from most of them about their daily lives. Except one. And I don’t really see her anymore.

One of my friends has 3 children under 6. I only see her every 4-6 months in person as she’s obviously very busy but we text every week or two. Quick catch up. She was telling me about the book she’s writing and her job yesterday. Normally when we meet I pop round first and see the kids then we head out to dinner and her husband stays home with them. She only mentions them again if it’s relevant to something or it’s a funny story.

Another friend is a single parent with a son with autism. She struggled for childcare so I often see her with her son. I’ve helped her carry him home when he’s in a meltdown and being violent. But she still manages to talk about other things and doesn’t act like she’s the only person in the world to have a child. She texts me almost daily about general mundane things. Occasionally she’ll have a moan or a cry but she doesn’t go on and on about what a constant battle her life is (even though it is!).

Then I have more casual friends who are still just normal. One friend I’ll text every few months. “How’s the kids? Yeah all good. Have you seen that new film? Ooh not yet I’ll try next weekend! Are you coming to the meet up in October? No can’t make it my husband is away but I’ll be at the next one!” And so forth. No leaving messages unread for months. Or talking about survival.

The friend I no longer see really changed after her baby. Constant talk of “oh I never truly knew what tired was before I had a baby” etc. God forbid anyone said anything about something being hard or tiring and the response was always “well try doing it with a baby!!!” or “I can’t spend that much on myself I need to save everything for the baby.” and “Lucky you getting to go out. Some of us can’t anymore now we have babies who need us.” The best one was when another friend and I were visiting her and looking at dresses to wear to another friend’s upcoming birthday party. We found a nice dress and this friend responded with “oh I couldn’t wear something like that now I’m a MOTHER! It’s far too short. MOTHERS shouldn’t dress like that!” We were all around 30 at the time. The other friend who was there was a mother of 2. The dress was just above knee length. I think the final straw for me was when at a group lunch she asked specifically to sit somewhere else rather than next to me because I “didn’t understand how hard her life was now as I wasn’t a mother and she wanted to be near people who got it” This friend was so into motherhood that motherhood and HOW HARD IT WAS became her entire personality. So yeah I no longer see her.

At the end of the day women have been having babies since before we discovered fire. It’s no harder really for any woman now than it was 10,20,50,100 years ago. But yet some people are determined to make it so.

I'm in my early 40s and have found that I prefer the company of other child free people. I've made a lot of friends in the last 5 years through sport activities and friendships have grown organically.
Some are older and their children are grown up and others are child free.

I lost some close friends to motherhood- it's natural as their priorities change, they need the support network of other mums. And truthfully, I'm not that interested in children. I'd rather meet friends doing fun activities than siting drinking coffee in a soft play.

Friendship doesn't need to be for life. I've found old childhood friendships stop feeling stimulating and I prefer the company of people who interested in the same lifestyle as me.

I think you'll probably start to find your tribe again. It does take a bit of work though. Meeting friends through hobbies does require you to take a active role in taking the casual acquaintance to friend status.

I am in my 30s with kids and i’ve actually found it’s the same with my friends with kids even those of a similar age. Assumed we’d always meet but actually not really. A few times a year as everyone seems busy and goes for convenience ie prioritising friends they see eg at kids sports clubs, schools, life nearest to. So what I’m saying is it’s not always about child free versus with children. Although I appreciate it is in your case and it’s tough!!

I hear you. My friends had kids before I did and all I seemed to do was go to them or places for their kids. Actually I enjoyed going to the places as they were fun, just I felt the conversations were always about children stuff all the time and I just sat there, no one asked me about anything and I felt invisable, if I tried to start a conversation it was like I had spoken in a foreign language. They came to my house once after a bereavement on my side and they excitedly sat together and talked about babies. I had cooked them a meal and I don’t think anyone spoke to me except hello in the doorway.

However I would say now that I have made lots of new friends from having children, none compare to my longer standing friends, just maybe the first group I have mentioned I have distanced myself from a little. This I have remembered so when I had my children I clearly remembered what not to do.

It seems like you are doing all the right things, have you considered walking dogs (I hear you make more friends having a dog than kids)? Going to exercise classes, “meet up” walking groups have worked well for me before, volunteer ant Sunday Parkrun (I know it’s kids again, but volunteers will be anyone), anyone at work? all I can say are the good friendships can take a little longer to achieve which can be frustrating at times. Good luck.

I get where you're coming from, OP. YANBU.

I'm a bit older than you, in my 40s, no kids. Most of my friends have kids, and pretty much all had them in their 30s. As the childfree friend, I always tried to give my friends with kids a lot of grace, as they had far less time and energy than me. That meant me fitting into their schedules when the kids were small, and doing activities like going for walks in the park, playgrounds, cafes with kid-friendly menus.

(Often what worked really well for everyone was me going around my friends' houses for a cup of tea. Their children would be there, I'd interact with them for a bit, but then they'd drift off and play, and my friend and I could catch up.)

But there comes to a point where there needs to be some reciprocity for the friendship to survive. Once the children are past the baby/breastfeeding/toddler stage (and assuming no other factors like special needs, or being a single parent), there's no reason why your friends can't accommodate you once in a blue moon, and pop out for say, a coffee or glass of wine, while their husband / mum / MIL, etc, watches the kids.

I've been lucky with my friends, as nearly all of them are wonderful people who choose to make time for me (and their other childfree friends) when the opportunity arises. OP, you might just be unlucky that your friends have evidently decided not to make that choice (because I do believe that at some point, "being too busy with the kids" to see your friends becomes a choice, rather than a necessity).

If you spoke to your old friends well in advance of your next visit and said: "Hey, it's literally been years since we had a proper adult catch-up. Can we lock in xx date, when I'm next in town?" would they be receptive?

I can only tell you my thoughts as someone with children.

I’ve been a mum for my whole adult life. So I spent my 20s and 30s with majority childfree friends. But a decade later when I look back, the childfree friends that have stuck around and that I treasure are the ones that don’t mind my child.

And the ones I’ve drifted from are the ones that don’t really want to hang out with me and my child - because sometimes I try to find childcare but the only way to chat is a walk with my child.

But the thing is - I personally don’t mind. I often feel guilty for bringing a child along to what one thought was an adult day out. And when I chat to my mum friends we often have to agree whether it’s a childfree or child friendly meet up. We definitely have more meet ups with the kids because they are always there!!!

One of my childfree friends told me off for thinking that I can only hang out with her if I don’t have the kids. I told her I’ll let her know when I’m childfree and she said “don’t be silly - let me know either way and we will adjust the activity to match”

Although she has a dog - and I must say if you don’t mind pets, dog walkers tend to have a great social life meeting other dog walkers.

But I must add - in my 30s more of my friends are having children and they ask me “How do mums do it” - the all consuming nature of parenting is hard to understand. But I think people are within their rights to choose friends that do adult stuff vs friends that are always with their kids. I socialise differently when my children are around, and sometimes we genuinely socialise with eachother to get the kids to use up their energy.

But - I also have started investing more in my friendship. And one way I do this is letting my friends into my world a little bit more. Both childfree and those with children.

I don't think it's parents being patronising on this thread 😂

I think it's pretty common for friendships to shift as you get older and priorities change. Your friends lives have changed, either your friendship will shift to accommodate or it won't.

I think most people in their 30s have fewer friends than they did when younger. I imagine child free people have more capacity to make and maintain friendships. Does it matter if you make friends with people of a different age? Or try a different club I guess.

Child free friends OP are the way to go. Keep up loose links with your old parent friends but stop making an effort if they are making zero back. You don’t have to hang around soft play, focus talk around the kids, buy the kids presents and receive precisely nothing back in terms of effort or interest in you. I’m in my 50s now and went through the same thing.

Work, hobbies. Meet-up didn’t work for me. Surprisingly the bumble friend app worked well but I think it depends on the area.

Actually we do get it. And that’s fine. It’s a ‘season’ for you. Some of your friends will hang round for when you come out of it and many won’t.

Yet so many parents are so patronising to their childfree friends. And most of us wouldn’t dare suggest you try harder because we get our heads bitten off.

Fwiw some of my child free/childless friends are also disappearing mid/late 30s once they'd moved in with partners. It seems they're nesting (with and without eggs) and they only want to hang out with fellow couples 🙄 they also want to be in bed by 9pm...

So I joined a sports club with around 50% childfree gay men and it's really fun. We have days out unrelated to the sport, picnics, a bake off, and a few times a year we go out until the early hours.

P.s. give it 5-10 years and those old friends will come back, divorced and with disinterested teens.