To think friendship is hard for childless/childfree women

No, that's fair enough. I think I was reacting to the undercurrent I detect in these discussions sometimes suggesting that partners of mums taking care of their own children is somehow unthinkable. I also know that these partners won't always be male, but I'd bet a good amount of money that 99% of the feckless ones are.

It's so damned hard isn't it. I'm 42 without kids and whilst most of my friends are also non parents, making friends in this new city has been difficult for the reasons you outline. Yes I'm open to being friends with people of all ages and I do indeed have friends in their sixties, but that doesn't stop it feeling alienating when you turn up to a group and you're the ONLY one over 30 or under 55.

The thing is, we're not even all that rare! One in five of us will hit 45 without having given birth, so how are we not finding each other? Do we need to set up a "between standard club age groups" social club?

That’s not really the point she was making, though.

I thought that post was a good one which explained a lot of my own feelings well. By the end of the day I’m just done in, to be honest. I know this will change in time but for now it’s where I’m at.

Are men incapable of ever doing bath time/bedtime?

I’ve got two kids and pregnant. I feel exactly the same so I don’t think it’s a kid/no kid thing. I’ve got three boys and crave female company but mainly only have acquaintances left as many closer friends moved far away and now it’s hard to even get a text out of them.

I don't know why you're getting snarky with me when all I did was ask OP a question that was nothing to do with you.

Yes, she said she hadn't seen them since December. We don't know the exact ins and outs of why that is - she might have decided that she's no longer willing to see them unless they travel to her 50% of the time. I was just, you know, exploring the issue. The rest of the stuff about interruptions you just made up.

Literally the second line in the opening post is "My school friends mostly have children now and I last saw them in December."

If you never see someone, you don't have their company, pleasurable or otherwise. I don't see how it could possibly have been spelled out any clearer.

well, no, obviously, that's literally the exact point she's making! She specified in her OP, she hasn't seen most of her friends for eight months because they (understandably, but not great for her) prioritise their kids. Then when they do meet up it's half-finished conversations constantly interjected with 'Noah! Stop that! Sorry what were you saying...No! Noah!' So no, not much 'pleasure' at all.

Well she didn't say all of that, so I don't think it was obvious at all.

well, no, obviously, that's literally the exact point she's making! She specified in her OP, she hasn't seen most of her friends for eight months because they (understandably, but not great for her) prioritise their kids. Then when they do meet up it's half-finished conversations constantly interjected with 'Noah! Stop that! Sorry what were you saying...No! Noah!' So no, not much 'pleasure' at all.

I completely agree with you OP, it does suck. I think the problem is that when you have kids you have an automatic influx of new potential friends in the same situation as you - baby groups, then nursery, school, etc. But there's no automatic equivalent for the child free. All you can do is keep trying different groups - there will be some that will be closer to your demographic (although also there's nothing wrong with branching out and making friends 10/20 years older or younger than you as well!).

You might find more luck specifically focussing on child-free groups, even if that means taking the plunge and creating one yourself. There was a huge child-free women group in my old city, not one in my new one but I jointed a FB group called '(name of local area) girls' - the membership probably is slightly younger but there are frequent posts from people asking 'is anyone in their 30s interested in X,' or 'Is there anyone over 40 here,' and they get a group together.

It also depends on the type of hobby/activity as well - something like the gym you might get parents who can just about squeeze an hour in, but things that are a bit more intense (like outdoor rock climbing, long hikes, etc), or groups aimed around travelling, will naturally have a higher percentage of people with, not fewer commitments exactly because I hate it when people assume childfree people have nothing to worry about in their lives, but often a bit more flexibility.

ger multiple messages don't read like someone going through a tough newborn phase, but like someone with a lack of accessible support who is drowning in the murk of feeling like this will never get easier. and honestly, I wish someone had told me that this isn't how it's meant to feel, that this isn't all perfectly great and a sign you're in a healthy place.

meh. I have kids. one with complex medical needs then twins. eldest has autism and twins, well we'll see if they grow out of the ADHD check list.
I'm just about to go out for the day. ok, it's a volunteer shift in a kitchen, but it could be coffee. next weekend it's an overnight for a mates birthday. October it's 3 nights with my girlfriends in another part of the country.
it's doable cos DH doesn't work weekends. oh, and is a parent not a lazy entitled man who thinks sperm was all he needs to give.

now, if you're a lone parent without a village, it's always going to be hard and good friends will come to you. if you have kids with really complex needs but a partner / village, it might mean you're up for dinner but not a weekend away.

but honestly I had a non verbal kid with complex needs and twin babies and the fight for survival period was exactly WHY DH made sure I was able to get out for a few hours. and the hard work is exactly WHY DH does his share and we both get time out.

I found childcare exactly that hard when my dc were little. Babies are very different. Please don't tell other women what their experiences are.

Suggesting another woman has pnd because they found caring for a newborn tough is honestly horrible.

honestly, parenting isn't typically as hard as your finding it. unless you're a lone parent, or you have multiple kids with complex needs, it isn't this hard to make some time away from them. if your anxiety etc is making you feel like it's impossible, then I'd really advise you to get help

your breastfeeding which obviously makes a difference but presumably after 6 months you'll nurse less and less and won't be nursing all through the day. even if it isn't travelling far to see a friend, why can you not manage a coffee in a coffee shop near you? or a meal in a restaurant in the near town?

you talk as though 24 hours away requires miloarty planning, which makes me think you are struggling more, maybe with pnd etc. than you relaise

Of course friendship is about ‘getting something’ from each other, whether it’s company, support, fun etc. What exactly is the parent offering in your scenario? But you are expecting the childfree person to make even more effort, by babysitting? Why would you do that for someone who has no interest or time for you?

I think that's why my relationship with my best friend survived week been I had Sheridan and she didn't. My children meant that I had virtually no time off-duty, that other parts of my life had to fit into the gaps around their needs, I was usually exhausted when we managed to meet up and my kids were the main thing in my life to talk about. But raising them, although it was very hard work, felt like a vocation and brought me a joy that was proportionate to the time and effort I put in. She, has a job that means that every moment of free time has to be carefully planned, that leaves her exhausted, that takes up enough time to be a huge part of her life, and that is a vocation and a key part of her identity. I supported her with her job before I had kids and when my kids were old enough to leave behind for time with her. She supported me when my children were little. We both give what we can, when we can, and recognise that sometimes the other person has nothing to give, but that in a long-lasting friendship, that will change. We're heading into middle age now and caring for children is only an issue now for a few of us in our friendship group. But as we age, and our parents age, there's a whole new set of caring responsibilities starting to affect us, and the child free people are just as much as affected as the ones with children.

So my advice would be to consider whether you see your friendships as having long- term potential, in which case it's worth putting in a bit of legwork but also making new friends who are right for this season of your life.

I agree. Not every friend has children at the same time. And some of my friends are child free.

It comes down to dramatically different lifestyles. It sounds like you take an interest in their kid and are happy to do child friendly meet ups, it can usually work if the child free person is prepared to make all the effort in those early years.

It's not spot on though, is it? Because lots of parents have written on here that they still manage to go out with friends and that they don't just spend their free time staring into space just because they have kids.

It's not something I see in real life either - I don't know anyone who is so all-consumed with parenting that they don't maintain their friendships.

Also when individual friends have had babies I’ve enjoyed being part of their babies / kids lives and tried to make life easier for them such as visiting them, meeting up where is convenient for them and sending useful gifts.
Being a parent is fucking brutal and you’re in survival mode in the early days (hence me deciding not to do it) and you have to understand that.

Yet there are plenty of people on here who do have kids who also don’t understand the “daily life is survival only and all parents can do for years is stare into space” mentality. The majority of my friends with multiple children are just like they were before kids - just busier. They still text. They still go out. They still have careers. They still have hobbies.

I don’t know how to say this without gloating but I’m childfree and have loads of friends and a very active social life.
I have different groups of friends from childhood, the city I moved to, and old job 15yrs ago, current work, and gym. A lot of them have kids but because those most of these friendship groups didn’t grow up together and have babies at a similar time they’re not ‘mum friends’ as such, and the socialising we do doesn’t revolve around or include their kids.
So basically I don’t find it hard at all but maybe I form relationships/ friendships easier than others.
I do think it’s easier to make friends with people once they’re out of the toddler years of parenting.

So you think the friends who are not parents are unreasonable for wanting their parent friends to contribute towards the friendship, yet also the non parent friends should be offering babysitting services? (I’m assuming so the parents can then go out with other friends and not them? 🤣)

I've heard all of that before so I do get it.

My point was that when I'm told that parenthood is such a 24/7 miserable existence that parents can't possibly be expected to think about their friends, I just think... you willingly chose it over the perfectly decent friendship we had, then. You'd rather have that 24/7 miserable experience than hang out with me.

If someone doesn't want children, why on earth would they want to get involved with them, let alone offer to become a babysitter for them?