AIBU to ask what is happening in Middlesbrough at the moment?

But they ARE ignoring it at street level in their aim to spend years building cases against Mr Big.

Organised criminal gangs DO HAVE corrupt accountants, lawyers, etc - how else do you think they manage to start all the money laundering businesses, etc. How do you think organised criminal gangs get forged passports, or can open bank accounts in fake names, or get false/cloned number plates made up? They have their own networks of criminals.

Anyway, lots of illiterate and innumerate people successfully run their own businesses because THEY DO engage legitimate lawyers and accountants etc to help them, i.e. they engage book-keepers to raise invoices, pay bills, etc, they employ accountants to deal with tax returns, etc etc. I'm a small accountancy practice and have had loads of such clients who basically pay others to do everything they can't do themselves. It's only like how lots of them use phone answering services, or social media marketing assistants, etc. Very few small business owners do everything themselves with no professional help at all!

Setting up a small simple business as a sole really really isn't complex. Lots of info online that is just a google click away, etc.

I don’t understand the conversion. I never said it was zero or indeed, working. However I have seen some brilliant documentaries about how police deal with OCGs and it’s not like they’re ignoring it. Don’t you think the police know more than you how to deal with organised crime?

Nail on the head. The police, generally, DO know who is involved in organised crime, but seem to want (in some cases) to let it happen whilst they try to build cases against the top people, sometimes for years. Meanwhile, lots of harm is done to drug users (addiction), society (crimes to pay to buy drugs), etc which seems to be "acceptable" collateral damage in the main aim of getting the top people. The police don't tend to bother at the "bottom" end either because they know it's a waste of time when the CPS often won't prosecute and even if they do, the Courts give lenient sentences.

It's all a big fat mess.

Perhaps the Middlesbrough police deaths may knock some sense into politicians, courts, CPS and police to start tackling street level drug crime, and money laundering, modern slavery etc., around it. If anything "good" can come of it, I hope the Middlesbrough travesty can be a catalyst to stop the acceptance of low level crime. We really could do with some kind of "x strikes and you're out" sentencing to stop these scrotes who rack up multiple offences and freed to carry on without effective sanctions.

It’s very far from zero.

Do you think it’s been working well?
In Middlesbrough for example?

Exactly. Lots of transferable skills no doubt.

They manage 'org' crime. Requires collaboration, initiative, loyalty, respect to authority aka gang leaders and some will have decent numeracy, persuasion and people skills. What's lacking is opportunity and support.

Oh the irony - selling drugs IS their business.

How would you expect it to work?

Do you think unless there are zero gangs and drugs, it’s not “working” ??

Oh god do you have any understanding how complex that is, for anyone?

you think that an uneducated 18 year old will be able to pay tax, use accountants and lawyers, manage customer service? 🤣

that's exactly the reason the police aim to smash the gangs, and target minor street gang members less. It’s a hiding to nothing as they’re completely disposable. Disrupt the supply and you get somewhere

Is it working though?

Oh lovely idea. Do you know how many small businesses fail in their first year? How do you imagine a business employing disenfranchised youths would fare? Would you buy a coffee/insurance/double glazing from them? That's if they even turn up and don't have their hand in the till.

It woukd be lovely if there were more businesses employing young people but they're not going to be employing these young people.

💯 this! People are so focused on throwing young groomed gang members into prison, not realising that all that does is create a job vacancy on the street. Impriosned, killed whatever- they’re replaced in hours

that's exactly the reason the police aim to smash the gangs, and target minor street gang members less. It’s a hiding to nothing as they’re completely disposable. Disrupt the supply and you get somewhere

But they didn't kill police officers in that context, they killed two people who happened to be police officers.

"Let them work" Doing what exactly? Businesses and industry have zero requirements for untrained and unqualified 16 year-olds with an authority problem. The number of unskilled manual jobs drops every year.

Absolutely agree it’s starts due to disenfranchisement. And when you have parents and grandparents who are already there they raise kids who feel that way from a young age.

Agree about surestart. No - you won’t touch everyone in society. But take an area with a population say of 1000 and 600 of those are disenfranchised. 200 value education and 200 live in poverty but not crime.

Over 50% of a community have influence over the other 40%.

Of we can reach 200/3/400 of those 600 we tip the scales.

The reason crime spread through communities is community cohesion. Easier to join them than beat them.

If you become a much smaller piece of the pie as a criminal and cannot groom
the generation to join in it becomes harder for you to increase your “gang” and to continue.

Raising hope makes people feel listened to and valued. Feeling valued stops them fighting against authority. It’s that fight that makes them blame authority - eg the police - when it goes wrong.

They been conditioned to blame everyone else for their problems. This is why reform and restore do so well in these types of areas.

The responsibility for all this crime and the murders lies firmly at the feet of those responsible.

However if anyone thinks it’ll just go away without some serious investment into the area and making them
feel as a community there’s a different and better way - they are deluded.

Imprisoning those responsible just leaves a gap in the market without real change alongside.

I wasn't in opposition to their view. What's going on is heartbreaking.

The school system serves those from middle class homes who value education and are generally already doing well in life. There needs to be MUCH more opportunity post 16 (even post 15 perhaps) and no, not just college, some 16 year olds don't want to sit in class and learn. Let them work.

That’s quite different to your question, in fact you seem quite aligned with what the poster said.

when you have a community problem you need a community solution. There is NO DOUBT that some people in society are untouchable and unsupportable. They have always been there and always will be. But that shouldn’t be mixed go with a community problem

Unfortunately some sections of society couldn't care less. In fact community in this case is part of the problem - young boys being part of the criminal going ons, they start them early as we have seen, it's there cultural capital. How does crime prevention work? There is no respect for Police.

I do think bringing back Sure Start Centres and opportunities for disadvantaged mums and kids would be a good step. However some communities don't want to know and abide by their own culture and rules. They need healthy good role models, that's the problem. But the role models won't be (and shouldn't be for obvious reasons) middle class, I suppose the working classes have been displaced in society.

Edited to add

Do you not think the poster has already answered that? They’ve pulled out education, community, opportunity, poverty, crime prevention

I think it's a stretch to call the house beautiful, its been fairly savagely destroyed by someone with a footballers wives aesthetic.

And I agree with @putupwhatever . It's not a town of two halves. It's an almost relentlessly poor and ground down town with a few pockets of affluence on the periphery.

It's been horribly abandoned and it's such a shame