To believe that we need to create two hundred more Grammar Schools for the Shires of England.

That’s not true. I genuinely wanted a better education for my children than I had from a comp. I wanted to make sure they had all the tools they need to go on to having a fulfilling adult life. There was absolutely no snobbery involved in my decision making.

The thing is in real life I see social mobility happening in massive strides in DS grammar school every single day! These are immigrant families who haven’t got many assets who have pushed their kids and the kids are getting into elite Russell group unis and into professional careers. So it is social mobility happening right there in front of my own eyes every single day. These are the superselective grammars and grammars which are taking a distinct demographic mainly Asian and elevating them.

I think the discussion around underachievement by white working class on FSM is entirely separate.
Why are some kids on FSM/not professional uni educated parents achieving in eg London in strict schools and a competitive environment but not in some other parts of the country.

I think there are massive regional differences and the one size fits all lorded from the top and the DFE just is not working.

Also I don’t see why the failure to establish technical colleges everywhere as was originally intended gets blamed on grammar schools.

@noblegiraffe - yes yes yes, heard it all the key is in the wording “some BAME groups!” But what about the other BAME groups, they don’t count?!

These are the superselective grammars and grammars which are taking a distinct demographic mainly Asian and elevating them.

OR these kids who work hard to get into grammar school continue to work hard and get good results. It's not rocket science to get great grades out of super hard working bright kids or children of recent immigrants. It's one of the reasons London schools massively outperform the rest of the country.

So it's ok that the test discriminates against Pakistani kids so long as Chinese kids are good, sort of thing?

Bucks is the highest attaining county educationally in the entire country in any event so hardly an anti grammar argument!

In addition, QE Barnet had 1/3 of the year group in 2026 achieve all A stars - that is 59 kids. St Olave’s had 1/4 of the entire year group achieve all A stars. Against a national average of 2.x%. That is 33% and 25% respectively and the demographics of both schools are predominantly Asian.

No @noblegiraffe - but the grammar schools and competitive London system is working extremely well for some immigrant families who are elevating and getting full on social mobility in Britain today.
Kings Maths School - another case in point - highest Oxbridge and Imperial rates - 30% are getting SEND support, over 30% have English as an EAL. But hardly free school meals and no EHC.
So what now? The kids who are EAL and talented and socially mobile don’t matter?

If you want an overall productive society you have to implement and celebrate what is working.

And then you have to take a step back and look at what is not working specifically and intervene specifically there. So if Pakistani and Bangladeshi kids are being left behind and white working class boys on FSM as well - then you intervene from preschool age right there.
But you don’t go blaming grammar schools who have elevated a whole swathe of other types of disadvantage very successfully and try and blame them for all social ills and not reaching the hardest to get groups.

Er, I'm supposed to be impressed that highly selective schools have those results compared to the non selective national average?

The top performing demographic in the country performs really well when you put them all in a school together - and you're arguing that it's down to the school.

You ignored the fact that the Pakistani and disadvantaged kids that didn't get in had the same SATs scores as those who did.

So find a solution? Allow a certain number of places to be reserved for those groups with high SATS scores after they are released in the summer term.

“The top performing demographic in the country performs really well when you put them all in a school together - and you're arguing that it's down to the school.”

No, I am arguing that top performing kids also have rights to feed off each other and not just be fed by the system as the system ordains to be politically correct. They have additional learning needs too. Now if the current system is not finding all of them then the solution is to find more of them. Not to destroy what is working for those kids. They don’t have a duty towards educating other children, that is on the adults.

As for the dyslexic and bright kids and those with SEND, again it is not the fault of grammar schools that plenty of kids are not being diagnosed earlier and that early intervention is put in place right from the start. Everything we know about the human brain points to the fact that the earlier you intervene, the better.

As we move to a society with an ageing population and a shrinking demographic supporting the top heavy and the bottom heavy, you have to bring the best out in everyone and that includes both those at the top and at the bottom. It is not an either or.

The solution is decent comprehensive education that doesn't label kids as wheat or chaff aged 11? That doesn't need active interventions to stop it being racist?

I'm astonished that you think people should be impressed by the results of a school that is basically a fantasy headteacher school crammed with the exact kids you'd pick if you wanted to get those results with minimum effort.

I think if you had a fantasy football league and someone hacked it so they got to pick a team full of Ronaldo, Beckham, Harry Kane and all those other top players while everyone else was rationed to one player from each of the leagues and then the person who hacked the system went round cheering LOOK HOW MANY GOALS MY TEAM SCORED I'M THE BEST, there would certainly be eye rolls. That's not to denigrate the skill of the players in his team who are undoubtedly very good at football, but the guy who hacked the system who thinks that their success makes him superior to the others would definitely be seen as a bit of a twat.

I understand your concern OP. In a society where, in a lot of schools, being interested in learning gets you bullied, we need more places where children who want to learn can do so.

I'm one of 6 siblings from a FSM family. We all got into the local grammar school which was brilliant, we all have degrees and the UK economy has benefitted from two accountants, a senior medic, a head teacher and two board-level business people. We all pay higher rate tax. Grammar school was our way away from our parents livestyle but we were lucky to get in.

Instead, senior schools should be smaller (1,600-2,000 pupils is too large), brought back under LEA control and the funding increased per pupil, so distruptive children and those with sen can be supported properly in separate streams, and teachers can teach without being attacked or having chairs hurled at them.

In the meantime, faced with truly awful state provision locally, my ds went to a small independent. It was the only way I could give him the education he deserved.

“I'm astonished that you think people should be impressed by the results of a school that is basically a fantasy headteacher school crammed with the exact kids you'd pick if you wanted to get those results with minimum effort.”

That is just offensive @noblegiraffe in every way. The headteachers and the kids and all the teachers at these schools work extremely hard to achieve those results!!! No A stars drop from the sky, ever. You say you are a Maths teacher and you know that to be the case!!

So you are making this all about the teachers and who you want to teach to make your life easier, just like @Anothermoomin - you are not making it about the gifted kids in these schools nor their hard work at all! Both of you are just thinking about staff recruitment not what is best for the kids in question, nor their families. And that is anti spirit for education.

That is just offensive in every way. The headteachers and the kids and all the teachers at these schools work extremely hard to achieve those results!!! No A stars drop from the sky, ever. You say you are a Maths teacher and you know that to be the case!!

I didn't say that the kids didn't work hard. In fact, it's because they work hard that makes it so much easier for the teachers.

I cannot be the only maths teacher who has ever taught top set and set them off on some work then looked around the class and felt completely superfluous at that point, which is absolutely not the case when teaching other classes.

I think the point is that if you select children at 11 by making them sit an exam, it's not surprising that they do well in exams at 16. Probably no better than they would do in a non selective school. Choose the top 1% (as some schools who are top.of the league tables do) & hey presto, you get GCSE results that are the very best in the country

It is not hey presto though, a lot of extremely hard work goes into achieving top results for most kids! You both are trying to make it sound effortless and a given. It isn’t not for the kids and not for the adults teaching them. Having had 4 DC go through this type of school, I promise you that it operates on an extreme effort basis by all staff, all parents and majority of the students.

@noblegiraffe - it isn’t superfluous though is it! A lot of it is a different type of teaching including investigative type teaching. Do you think the professors at Cambridge teaching maths to the brightest feel superfluous?
What complete tosh. Those teachers are simply not spoon feeding, teaching them brightest is a different type of teaching as a lot of bright kids learn by investigation.