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Original poster

To believe that we need to create two hundred more Grammar Schools for the Shires of England.

527 replies

redange · 26/08/2026 12:28

To believe England needs two hundred new Grammar schools across the country and in doing this take the number of English Grammar Schools to 363.

I appreciate this is a post that is going to lead to me being called names and for posters to be looking at spelling and grammar mistakes as a means of belittlement .

Nonetheless, there must be support among some posters for the lifting of the 1998 Labour Ban on the creation of Grammar Schools where there is a desire or clear need. The only Grammar School that has been built since 1965 being the Weal Of Kent Grammar Annexe in Sevenoaks . Surely if the country is going to be able to grow economically, we need to revisit the idea of selective education across Sport, Art and academic rigour. It is also not impossible that a fairer and more equitable system of selection could be introduced alongside the 11+ exam. Thus, in doing so access to selective education should not be a 'one and only' chance. I think this is where a lot of people have problems, because they see selective education through the prism of pass or fail. Pass or Fail does not mean the same today as it meant in 1965 because firstly the advent of a single exam system of GCSE's and A levels that all pupils take or can advance to.

OP posts:
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Original poster
redange · 27/08/2026 10:28

That is the most depressing post I have read in recent weeks and still doesn't justify telling a kid with an 8 at GCSE that they can't do FM.

Imagine what it must be like telling a 17 year old player at a Premier League club he is being released he has not made the grade.

The point being the school has decided that a grade 9 is required for Further Maths and have enough pupils attaining a grade 9 for the subject to take place.

OP posts:
Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 10:31

redange · 27/08/2026 10:28

That is the most depressing post I have read in recent weeks and still doesn't justify telling a kid with an 8 at GCSE that they can't do FM.

Imagine what it must be like telling a 17 year old player at a Premier League club he is being released he has not made the grade.

The point being the school has decided that a grade 9 is required for Further Maths and have enough pupils attaining a grade 9 for the subject to take place.

Surely this will mean parents will be increasingly asking for remarks for kids getting 8's...the goal posts constantly shifting means something isn't right with the foundations here.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 10:31

redange · 27/08/2026 10:28

That is the most depressing post I have read in recent weeks and still doesn't justify telling a kid with an 8 at GCSE that they can't do FM.

Imagine what it must be like telling a 17 year old player at a Premier League club he is being released he has not made the grade.

The point being the school has decided that a grade 9 is required for Further Maths and have enough pupils attaining a grade 9 for the subject to take place.

Yes, and that is wrong.

Original poster
redange · 27/08/2026 10:40

There has to be selection in everything you do buy or act upon. Thus, every school has to select in some way if it does not want the school inhabited with the lowest common denominator. Therefore some schools that don't have a religious affiliation need to use Strict Uniform code or Zero Tolerance to bad behaviour. This ensures the school frightens off the very worst children or parents from attending the school. Faith Schools are lucky in that families who attend Church are on the whole supportive of education. Grammar Schools can filter out the vast majority of bad behaviour because academic ability largely goes with the nous to behave in a classroom. Or at least be smart when behaving badly.

OP posts:
frozendaisy · 27/08/2026 10:51

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 10:25

That is the most depressing post I have read in recent weeks and still doesn't justify telling a kid with an 8 at GCSE that they can't do FM.

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But that pupil could have looked at other 6th form provision who would’ve let them take further maths with a grade 8. The pursuit of staying at “the grammar”, well you have to decide if that is “worth” more than doing the qualifications you want.

Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 11:00

redange · 27/08/2026 10:40

There has to be selection in everything you do buy or act upon. Thus, every school has to select in some way if it does not want the school inhabited with the lowest common denominator. Therefore some schools that don't have a religious affiliation need to use Strict Uniform code or Zero Tolerance to bad behaviour. This ensures the school frightens off the very worst children or parents from attending the school. Faith Schools are lucky in that families who attend Church are on the whole supportive of education. Grammar Schools can filter out the vast majority of bad behaviour because academic ability largely goes with the nous to behave in a classroom. Or at least be smart when behaving badly.

Scarcity mindset is not a good idea with education though - it creates an uneven playing field, which can be seen with the private vs state debates on here. Really all schools, if funded properly, should be able to achieve the same levels, some pupils doing well and some middling and some below. Every school system should be producing similar amounts of kids at the same levels. When you add in "top tier" you take from the main pool which drops everything for the area and makes parents panic that they have to jump through hoops just to get education. That is wrong on many levels. Think how we now pay for water we can't even use in heatwaves - that is where grammar and selective schools will get us. Narrowing down good education to a select few is not what people pay taxes for.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:01

frozendaisy · 27/08/2026 10:51

But that pupil could have looked at other 6th form provision who would’ve let them take further maths with a grade 8. The pursuit of staying at “the grammar”, well you have to decide if that is “worth” more than doing the qualifications you want.

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And therein lies another problem. Which nearby school will be offering further maths when the grammar school has taken all the kids with a 9?

Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 11:02

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:01

And therein lies another problem. Which nearby school will be offering further maths when the grammar school has taken all the kids with a 9?

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And often the grammar schools are the gatekeepers to subject choices.

malware · 27/08/2026 11:03

I still think it's fair enough: In a situation where there are more able pupils than places, the pupils who had the best results and had put in the most effort get the place.

My son also could not do FM A Level, despite his 9 at GCSE and eventual A* at Maths A Level. It was his own fault: he knew the criteria but he didn't put the effort in to his mocks because he didn't know he needed FM. He's now on track for a First in Engineering and has a job lined up in Formula 1 post-graduation, so it doesn't appear to have held him back at all.

Araminta1004 · 27/08/2026 11:04

Well if you want to do eg Econ or Engineering or Physics at an elite Russell Group uni you need at least an A in Further Maths at A level? So that is where the bottleneck is.
The school should allow kids to try the FM in year 12, but perhaps they just do not have enough maths teachers to go around for everyone who wants to do FM? I would say at DD’s grammar 3/4 doing Maths A level are doing FM A level too and I think if they are doing STEM there is extra funding. So no school is saying no to extra funding now are they? Unless there are other reasons.

Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 11:05

malware · 27/08/2026 11:03

I still think it's fair enough: In a situation where there are more able pupils than places, the pupils who had the best results and had put in the most effort get the place.

My son also could not do FM A Level, despite his 9 at GCSE and eventual A* at Maths A Level. It was his own fault: he knew the criteria but he didn't put the effort in to his mocks because he didn't know he needed FM. He's now on track for a First in Engineering and has a job lined up in Formula 1 post-graduation, so it doesn't appear to have held him back at all.

Edited

People move to our grammar area from London, so the entire area is skewed with local kids being pushed out because they can't afford tutoring and often have never seen the test question styles before. If you drop the selective entrance and raise teaching - maybe rotating specialist teachers in areas between schools for the top sets - people can stay where they are and kids will get the same education from one town to the next in every school.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:05

malware · 27/08/2026 11:03

I still think it's fair enough: In a situation where there are more able pupils than places, the pupils who had the best results and had put in the most effort get the place.

My son also could not do FM A Level, despite his 9 at GCSE and eventual A* at Maths A Level. It was his own fault: he knew the criteria but he didn't put the effort in to his mocks because he didn't know he needed FM. He's now on track for a First in Engineering and has a job lined up in Formula 1 post-graduation, so it doesn't appear to have held him back at all.

Edited

It would have prevented him from applying for certain university courses which require FM though?

And what on earth criteria did they have above a 9 at GCSE? The fact that your kid who is clearly extremely able was denied the opportunity to do FM A-level is damning of the school, not your son.

malware · 27/08/2026 11:06

I have a son who went to a London superselective and another at the local comp. The education isn't as different as you'd think. I can see positives in both,

malware · 27/08/2026 11:07

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:05

It would have prevented him from applying for certain university courses which require FM though?

And what on earth criteria did they have above a 9 at GCSE? The fact that your kid who is clearly extremely able was denied the opportunity to do FM A-level is damning of the school, not your son.

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It's a superselective. They all get a 9

Araminta1004 · 27/08/2026 11:08

It is pretty shit if a kid doing Maths, FM and Physics or Chem gets further funding from Government, but a kid doing Maths FM and Economics and a language does not. And then a lot of grammars are on their arses funding wise and pushing for FM for those doing Physics and Chem too. And the Econ classes are massively full and oversubscribed.

malware · 27/08/2026 11:08

I also think selectivity is a double edge sword: you can't complain you when you miss out on a place on FM because of selectivity when you benefited from selectivity for your school place. Either it's a competition or it's not!

insomniacalways · 27/08/2026 11:08

Nottinghamshire - we don't have a grammar system at all. So no we don't need any new ones and also yep birth rate is nosediving.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:09

Araminta1004 · 27/08/2026 11:04

Well if you want to do eg Econ or Engineering or Physics at an elite Russell Group uni you need at least an A in Further Maths at A level? So that is where the bottleneck is.
The school should allow kids to try the FM in year 12, but perhaps they just do not have enough maths teachers to go around for everyone who wants to do FM? I would say at DD’s grammar 3/4 doing Maths A level are doing FM A level too and I think if they are doing STEM there is extra funding. So no school is saying no to extra funding now are they? Unless there are other reasons.

Out of interest, what are the FM class sizes?

Asuitablecat · 27/08/2026 11:09

I tell you what, mn has it all this week:
Grammar vs comp
Worrying about sahm
Bf vs ebf
Meghan and Harry.

It's like a greatest hits of clickbait!

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:11

malware · 27/08/2026 11:07

It's a superselective. They all get a 9

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Then this is not an argument in favour of more of this type of school tbh.

"oh we've got too many kids who get a 9 so we can't offer them the courses that they would be offered in a comp so we have to artificially price them out of them.

Original poster
redange · 27/08/2026 11:11

What I would say though with something like Further Maths at A Level, the decision to admit should be done to the teacher taking it. Thus a pupil with a grade 8 might be a better fit than say one with a grade 9 . This being the grade 8 pupil might have only just missed the grade 9 but loves maths and will work hard. The grade 9 pupil might be very good naturally at maths but not be prepared to work as hard as the grade 8 pupil. Thus, complain that A Level Maths is difficult whereas the grade 8 pupil might spend hours overcoming the difficulty.

I suspect with a subject like Maths at A admittance and suitability might be a bit subjective.

OP posts:
Araminta1004 · 27/08/2026 11:14

Usually when allocating A level subjects and having a large new intake, admissions have just days to allocate the classes and go on overall GCSE point score. They cannot be allocating based on natural talent and the detail of work ethic. They are massively oversubscribed etc.

But often if you then ask in week 3 having worked extremely hard if you can join the FM stream and they can fit it in timetable wise, they will allow you to switch.

malware · 27/08/2026 11:19

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:05

It would have prevented him from applying for certain university courses which require FM though?

And what on earth criteria did they have above a 9 at GCSE? The fact that your kid who is clearly extremely able was denied the opportunity to do FM A-level is damning of the school, not your son.

Show quote history

And to answer your question, the only place which really wanted the FM was Cambridge. But wouldn't have closed the door entirely as there were tests you could have shown your capabilities. They know not every school has a FM offering.. The fact he wasn't in the top swathe of the superselectives and missed the FM A Level cut probably counted against him. He didn't get a place (thankfully, would have been a bad fit)

SadiraOfTyr · 27/08/2026 11:19

redange · 26/08/2026 15:35

Unfortunately academic selection is one of the only ways to out behavioural problems out of schools , the other way is through paying or Private Education. The only way to get the very people involved in the A66 outrage for instance out of your Daughters/Son schools for instance is either though academic selection or to pay for it. Thus, the bar for selection could be altered and different levels of Grammar schools could exist via Selective Sport/Art schools. Also different levels of Grammar schools via tier 1 top 10% tier 2 top 25% and tier 3 ones taking top 40% which would enable bright children with SEN needs to gain access or relatively academically ordinary children who worked efficiently and behaved well !

How do these 'different levels of grammar schools' work? Are you saying that every catchment should have 3 grammar schools and a secondary modern? And that the grammar schools take 75% of pupils?

It seems that what you are actually arguing for is increased provision of special schools (for those with severe SEN) and PRUs (for highly disruptive/violent pupils).

frozendaisy · 27/08/2026 11:20

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 11:01

And therein lies another problem. Which nearby school will be offering further maths when the grammar school has taken all the kids with a 9?

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One that takes the kids with 8s?