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To believe that we need to create two hundred more Grammar Schools for the Shires of England.

527 replies

redange · 26/08/2026 12:28

To believe England needs two hundred new Grammar schools across the country and in doing this take the number of English Grammar Schools to 363.

I appreciate this is a post that is going to lead to me being called names and for posters to be looking at spelling and grammar mistakes as a means of belittlement .

Nonetheless, there must be support among some posters for the lifting of the 1998 Labour Ban on the creation of Grammar Schools where there is a desire or clear need. The only Grammar School that has been built since 1965 being the Weal Of Kent Grammar Annexe in Sevenoaks . Surely if the country is going to be able to grow economically, we need to revisit the idea of selective education across Sport, Art and academic rigour. It is also not impossible that a fairer and more equitable system of selection could be introduced alongside the 11+ exam. Thus, in doing so access to selective education should not be a 'one and only' chance. I think this is where a lot of people have problems, because they see selective education through the prism of pass or fail. Pass or Fail does not mean the same today as it meant in 1965 because firstly the advent of a single exam system of GCSE's and A levels that all pupils take or can advance to.

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bittertwisted · 26/08/2026 23:56

Let’s face it, comprehensives are selective. My boys went to an outstanding school, in a beautiful village, with many other privileged middle class children who have professional parents pushing them . It’s just selective in a different way

UnintentionalArcher · 26/08/2026 23:47

redange · 26/08/2026 20:01

All teachers will public-ally criticise Selective education while doing there upmost to access Grammar schools or Scholarships for their own children. This apart from my Mother who was a ex Grammar School deputy head and my sister who is head of Sixth Form at a Lincolnshire Grammar ! Sister is a great advocate of fully selective education system across the country.

The real reason that teachers use Grammar Schools is because they know the score, but dare not say it out loud. Teachers who have children at Grammars always say conveniently, 'we could not help it because the local area is Selective' this of course is protection from being called a 'Tory' by the Militants who control education.

Teacher here. I publicly and privately criticise grammar and private education. Don’t presume to speak for all teachers.

Your comments are reductive and often inaccurate. The idea of some ‘sink’ schools only facing a handful of children ‘bright enough’ to get a few 6s is a completely back-to-front way of thinking. What constitutes a ‘bright’ pupil? Someone with sufficient privilege to have gained a good grounding in knowledge and skills within and beyond school, making it easier to accelerate progress? Someone with a sufficiently stable home life to have the emotional self-regulation to be able to behave? Someone with parents who value education enough to instil that value in their child?

At what point is a child considered bright and, conversely, when do we write them off because they’re just not bright enough? Is it when they show sparks of potential before their home life goes down the drain? Is it just a shame, but never mind, when they fail the 11+ because of this? Or, within reason and allowing for some innate natural variation, is ‘bright’ mainly just a product of the multifaceted privileges I’ve described?

There are many pupils in what you call ‘sink’ schools with the potential to get far better outcomes than they do and under-achievement is a product of complex socio-economic circumstances that go far beyond school. Well-run comprehensive schools can and do support good pupil progress - you may know that state schools have recently started to outstrip private schools in England in rates of pupil progress from starting points. Nonetheless, there are multiple factors outside of schools’ control affecting achievement at every stage that require wider societal reform and much better funding of more comprehensive services. Thinking of children in terms of ‘bright’ and ‘not bright’ is incredibly simplistic.

Equally, there is very little evidence that grammar schools did/do much for social mobility overall. They largely took/take already privileged children, usually those with some of the ‘protective’ factors I’ve outlined which made them more likely to already be on track for success by 11. There’s no evidence base that these children would’ve been less successful in comprehensive schools, and nor could there be - because they went to grammar schools and it’s their outcomes there by which we judge those schools. Equally, there’s evidence (e.g. Institute for Fiscal Studies) that the trade-off for pupils not getting into grammar schools in grammar school areas is slightly worse outcomes than their comprehensive school peers.

Survivorship bias is useful in understanding why we often over-attribute success to the grammar school system. Look at the work of Hungarian statistician Abraham Wald to help with conceptualising this.

You’ve also mentioned behaviour in secondary moderns being better than in some comprehensives today. I’m unsure what your data set is for that, but this seems to be another example of oversimplifying a complex issue. Taking just one aspect of this, there’s evidence about the decline of authority-based relationships in which context it would be expected that behavioural standards would now be harder to uphold in all schools than they used to be.

Grammar schools might be an appealing option for parents who (understandably) want to feel their child is in the best possible environment, but they’re not the answer to the issues with our education system or wider societal inequalities.

Lastly, you are criticising some posters for needing to lighten up (I paraphrase). You’ve asked a very serious question though, so you should expect serious answers. Most teachers work very hard, and many in challenging circumstances. When people fight to improve life chances for disadvantaged young people, then offer you thoughtful responses borne of years of experience, and provide supporting evidence, it’s advisable to at the very least listen to them rather than taking the inaccurate, simplistic and patronising view that all state school teachers would secretly want to privately/grammar-school educate their children if only they could afford to.

redange · 26/08/2026 23:15

CBB not CCB..

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redange · 26/08/2026 23:14

Deliberate mistake well done for pointing it out... Though, perhaps a Upper 2nd in Politics from a non RG in 1994 and only CBB means I am not an academic. Though CCB actually shocked the majority of teachers, after being in the bottom 10 of my Grammar at 5th year: 1989 with only 2 B's in History/ French and 4 scraped C's in English/ Maths Chemistry and Biology . Thus a B at A level in History a C in Chemistry and B in General Studies. So be kind to me . I would absolutely had been kicked out today at Sixth Form with 1 6 and 4 5's ..

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redange · 26/08/2026 23:02

I never said they could be used as evidence in any matter, but it seems the teaching profession has no sense of 'humor' or ability to laugh at itself. Perhaps, you could have said I wish I was paid enough to afford Private Schooling or could live in 'Sevenoaks'. Instead you get so sensitive and defensive, this is a trait both my sister and mother have and it allowed both myself and father to wind both up with remarks Such As 'On Holiday Again' was one of my Business Man Fathers wind up to my Mother. Every time teachers are the easiest to wind up, you need to be less stressed and believe in yourselves and the good you are doing.

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EBearhug · 26/08/2026 22:59

redange · 26/08/2026 20:32

Grammar mistake ! their upmost

Their utmost.

AMillionPeopleCheering · 26/08/2026 22:56

I'd be more interested in good technical schools that allowed kids to study practical stuff as well as academic. Thinking of all the core trades we all need. Give those less academic kids an education in stuff they might excel at.

CurlewKate · 26/08/2026 22:52

redange · 26/08/2026 21:32

I think I have proved my point from my first posting saying I expected to be called names or belittled . The only surprise being it took eight hours and not 10 minutes !

You have not been called names or belittled. It has simply been pointed out to you that two people from the same family are not a data set, and no conclusions can be drawn from their opinions.

redange · 26/08/2026 22:45

How many send the kids Private or looked for a Scholarship to enable this . For the record Anothermoomin are your children academically more able than most of your pupils! Would you be prepared to place your children with the most demanding children you teach, in order to facilitate your belief in Comprehensive Education . I suspect you would like your own academically more able and better behaved children in classes more representative of them than the lowest, achieving child you teach !

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TheOnlyWayIsIlford · 26/08/2026 22:41

Midnightmoonface · 26/08/2026 21:39

I don’t agree, where there is a proper grammar system the gcse results are significantly higher than England, showing that grammar schools do achieve better results, by a long way.
You only have to look at NI.

This article covers independent research that shows that grammar schools do not raise the education standards overall, and in fact do not always even maximise the potential of the brightest students

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/28/english-regions-dominated-by-grammar-schools-do-not-improve-grades-study-says

Mostly, IMO, parents just want to socially segregate their kids from ‘people not like us’ .

English regions dominated by grammar schools do not improve grades, study says

Pupils in grammar school areas experience little boost in results, while grades among brightest may actually be lower

https://www.theguardian.com/education/2023/aug/28/english-regions-dominated-by-grammar-schools-do-not-improve-grades-study-says

Wibble128 · 26/08/2026 22:31

Rather than look direct to an old system such as Grammar schools, I would ask the question what the country needs from a split eduction system. What skills and abilities need recognising early and developing to benefit the UK / Great Briaiin in the years ahead. I really think that Grammars were meant to develop children to be administrators of Empire and an elite of thinkers into Universities. That period is over, what will we need in 10 years time?

I agree we need to develop bright children away from those few who have needs that stop the many from learning and developing more quickly. One size fits all and adding TAs to manage the disruptors etc does not help the UK.

However the focus should be on what is the best curriculum and how to deliver it in an excellent manner.

Waitingforthetimetopass · 26/08/2026 22:27

Grammar schools do not increase students grades. They take the top % they put out the top %. The value added to students is roughly equal to the majority of comprehensives.

Why put 10 year olds through the 11+ to no purpose.

Anothermoomin · 26/08/2026 22:26

redange · 26/08/2026 22:22

It is not a necessity to provide qualitative or empirical research to provide anecdotal evidence based on your own observations. Whether my observations are correct or bear any resemblance to consistent patterns within the profession is not important on a site designed for in-formal debate !

So you’re talking crap and just want a bun fight.

OK you’re wrong, and all the teachers I know don’t send their kids to grammar schools. I win the argument cos I’m right.

redange · 26/08/2026 22:22

It is not a necessity to provide qualitative or empirical research to provide anecdotal evidence based on your own observations. Whether my observations are correct or bear any resemblance to consistent patterns within the profession is not important on a site designed for in-formal debate !

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Anothermoomin · 26/08/2026 22:14

redange · 26/08/2026 22:06

Whats foolish about expressing a view, or is it foolish if it does not agree with the consensus of those on the left !.

A lot of teachers quite rightly look for the correct school for their children, who on the whole are more academically able than the majority . So why would they not want a Grammar School or a Scholarship at an Independent. This unless they want to promote Comprehensive Education, with the same gusto as anti- Capital Punishment people do in the States trying to save someone from the 'Chair' !

Express your view by all means but you seem to be under the impression your opinion is in some way evidence when it is simple anecdote and you don’t seem to understand the difference.

Some teachers send their children to grammar schools, most do not because there are not that many grammar schools. You keep on stating teachers send their children to grammar schools and the only evidence you have presented is the fact your mother and sister have told you this. Can you not see that this is a deeply foolish stance.
Go away, do some research, present evidence.

Bushmillsbabe · 26/08/2026 22:13

Midnightmoonface · 26/08/2026 22:06

You can’t compare a single pocket of England and make sweeping comments though. A significantly smaller percentage of children in Kent attend grammars in NI, plus why would religion change educational outcomes?

You only have to look at how oversubscribed many Catholic schools are to answer the question of inpactbof religion on outcomes

In our area, the 5 or more upper grade gcse's this year are
Grammars - 95% +
Non selective Catholic secondary - 75 -80%
Non selective comps - 30-50%

Arguably the Catholic school probably has better quality teaching than the grammars to get results close to them without being selective. It may also be something to do that you generally need a certificate of church attendance to get in, and a proportion of these will be parents who are so committed to their child's education that (rightly or wrongly) they will turn up every Sunday whether Catholic or not to get that certificate signed

Midnightmoonface · 26/08/2026 22:06

noblegiraffe · 26/08/2026 22:03

Kent has a proper grammar system and is actually in England so would be a better comparison than NI where religion also plays a big part.

You can’t compare a single pocket of England and make sweeping comments though. A significantly smaller percentage of children in Kent attend grammars in NI, plus why would religion change educational outcomes?

redange · 26/08/2026 22:06

Whats foolish about expressing a view, or is it foolish if it does not agree with the consensus of those on the left !.

A lot of teachers quite rightly look for the correct school for their children, who on the whole are more academically able than the majority . So why would they not want a Grammar School or a Scholarship at an Independent. This unless they want to promote Comprehensive Education, with the same gusto as anti- Capital Punishment people do in the States trying to save someone from the 'Chair' !

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noblegiraffe · 26/08/2026 22:03

Midnightmoonface · 26/08/2026 21:39

I don’t agree, where there is a proper grammar system the gcse results are significantly higher than England, showing that grammar schools do achieve better results, by a long way.
You only have to look at NI.

Kent has a proper grammar system and is actually in England so would be a better comparison than NI where religion also plays a big part.

Anothermoomin · 26/08/2026 21:59

redange · 26/08/2026 21:32

I think I have proved my point from my first posting saying I expected to be called names or belittled . The only surprise being it took eight hours and not 10 minutes !

You’ve proved nothing about grammar schools. All you’ve demonstrated is if you post something foolish on MN you will be called out on it.

Midnightmoonface · 26/08/2026 21:39

noblegiraffe · 26/08/2026 21:22

Except they don't perform better elsewhere.

And the existence of grammar schools is detrimental to the other schools in the area.

So if you were creating an education system, grammar schools + secondary moderns isn't an overall improvement on comps.

I don’t agree, where there is a proper grammar system the gcse results are significantly higher than England, showing that grammar schools do achieve better results, by a long way.
You only have to look at NI.

redange · 26/08/2026 21:38

I do not know why posters get so upset about ideas that have no chance of ever happening. This, especially under a Government that actively sees the simplest way of creating equality is to make everybody losers.

For the record I do not need to write an academic essay or anything even up to GCSE standard to express a view.

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redange · 26/08/2026 21:32

I think I have proved my point from my first posting saying I expected to be called names or belittled . The only surprise being it took eight hours and not 10 minutes !

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noblegiraffe · 26/08/2026 21:22

Midnightmoonface · 26/08/2026 20:40

Why are the children who would likely perform better elsewhere responsible for the success of the other students or the comp?

Except they don't perform better elsewhere.

And the existence of grammar schools is detrimental to the other schools in the area.

So if you were creating an education system, grammar schools + secondary moderns isn't an overall improvement on comps.

OohAhhLegs · 26/08/2026 21:09

I'm forever glad the cleverer kids get a specialised education tailored to their needs

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