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To believe that we need to create two hundred more Grammar Schools for the Shires of England.

527 replies

redange · 26/08/2026 12:28

To believe England needs two hundred new Grammar schools across the country and in doing this take the number of English Grammar Schools to 363.

I appreciate this is a post that is going to lead to me being called names and for posters to be looking at spelling and grammar mistakes as a means of belittlement .

Nonetheless, there must be support among some posters for the lifting of the 1998 Labour Ban on the creation of Grammar Schools where there is a desire or clear need. The only Grammar School that has been built since 1965 being the Weal Of Kent Grammar Annexe in Sevenoaks . Surely if the country is going to be able to grow economically, we need to revisit the idea of selective education across Sport, Art and academic rigour. It is also not impossible that a fairer and more equitable system of selection could be introduced alongside the 11+ exam. Thus, in doing so access to selective education should not be a 'one and only' chance. I think this is where a lot of people have problems, because they see selective education through the prism of pass or fail. Pass or Fail does not mean the same today as it meant in 1965 because firstly the advent of a single exam system of GCSE's and A levels that all pupils take or can advance to.

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redange · 27/08/2026 20:38

GCSE attainment past grades 2-4...

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redange · 27/08/2026 20:37

So the type of difficulties that mean your potential at 11 isn’t obvious. Many people with dyslexia are bright but take longer to find their stride in education. The content is good but the details need a bit of work - grammar schools and the 11+ fails people like you. Children who face the same challenges as you are way more likely to fail but then develop into very strong students but failing the 11+ compounds their sense of failure.
You don’t want to be condemned but you want to condemn many children to thinking of themselves as failures. Just stop and think for yourself and stop repeating the mistakes your mother made. I must question your mothers skills an educationalist if she couldn’t diagnose her own daughters dyslexia.
And before you go on, I’m dyslexic was diagnosed by accident at university, both my D.C. are ND which is one of the reason I did not want them to attend grammar school.
I think this thread is you trying to work out some issue with your mum and sister and you need therapy not a MN thread.

· Anothermoomin · Today 13:43

First of all Grammar schools have been good for all members of my family apart from DH and my adopted Son who was adopted under Kinship protocols . DH was Public School Educated, my Son is moving to a Independent School on Wednesday to repeat his year 10. This being necessary because his current Comprehensive is unable to take DS's GCSE attainment post grades 2-4. This is largely been decided by the School due to his numerous difficulties. Unfortunately, a belief exists and maybe funding issues that's as far as the school can take him given that in year 7 his reading levels were that of a 6 year old, and his mathematical Skills of a 7 year old around.

Therefore, from the moment DS Secondary School he had to start reducing a deficit of four years based on average attainment. The school has provided appropriate teaching on the whole, despite not being able to get him in position where he be able to study at Level 3. The School has a specialised SEN department which takes children from a distance. The school is not particularly held in high regard but it was the most appropriate one until he out grew it. Thus, I took the decision to enrol him in a Private School because both myself and his new school believe given a restart in year 10 he can comfortably exceed grades 2-4 across eight subjects. More importantly he should attain at least grade 5's in English/Maths which opens up Level 3 study either A levels or Vocational Study possibly at another Private School. In DS's case high grades at Level 3 might not be the be all and end all but the two years in a Sixth Form and the maturing might be the ultimate gain.

With regards to my families relationship to Grammar Schools, let me start with myself and how my mothers influence and her indefatigability in helped her youngest daughter survive and then thrive. Thus, enabling a child who at 10.5 years age and 43 years with reading and comprehension skills around that of an 8 year old to have enough of a skill set to pass the 11+ .

In todays world perhaps an educational psychologist would diagnose my obvious problems, which my mum knew existed. However, in 1983 there was no such thing of support and any inclination of such disabilities would have indicated a place in a Special School might be appropriate. Indeed it could be said that i might have been allocated a place, due to some some of my witnessed behaviour at 3. This, suggested I could have 'significant' intellectual disabilities according to a Pediatric Specialist the Nursery had contacted.

Despite these difficulties and obstacles presented to me I passed my 11+ through my mothers determination and my elder sisters 13 year old 'patience' being severely tested in drilling me how to answer. I was at or near the bottom of my Grammar school, for the majority of the seven years yet it got me to 'University' . So well done to a School i did not belong in, I wonder if a Comprehensive if it existed in Kent in 1984, would have got me to University. I suspect not and likely I would have left at 16 with zero qualifications and a father asking friends to give me a job doing anything in an office.

Now, we have my two DD's DD1 just finished year 11 at her Girls Grammar and attained mostly grade 9s and 8s at GCSE . DD2 is beginning year 10 next week at the same Grammar and likely will achieve similar GCSE results. Why would I be anything but pro Grammar Schools given my history !

Finally my diagnose of at least seven linked disabilities came when the Clinical Psychologist diagnosing DS encouraged me to also be diagnosed with my disabilities. To annoy posters even more I score ten Points on Pip daily living which I give the exact amount i receive of £ 345 a month a way to charity via a direct debit !

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Araminta1004 · 27/08/2026 14:49

@noblegiraffe - class sizes for FM are large at DD’s grammar for A level. Hers was 26 last year. In contrast to her A level language which will be 3 in year 13. Thankfully they are still running the language despite low numbers. I am not sure how many of the 26 are dropping out in year 13.
It is difficult for the school at the beginning of year 12 to pinpoint exactly who really needs FM for the degree they apply to and type of uni by beginning of year 13.
I can’t remember if you needed a 9 to do FM, or an 8. It is a STEM heavy grammar like most Outer London superselectives and like another poster said, the majority of kids have a 9 at GCSE in Maths.

Yetone · 27/08/2026 14:29

As someone (old) who has been to both a grammar school and a secondary modern school, I cannot support this type of system. I was transferred from a SM school to a grammar school at 14.
I think the system is bad because the children at the SM really do just get written off. You can't have a school for the most capable without having a school for the ones who are not. 11 is such an early age to grade people. What about late developers?
What I do think should happen is that comprehensive schools should be able to allow children to follow grammar style education, if it is suitable for them. My children went to a comprehensive and had to do some practical subjects for GCSE which they really didn’t want to. They did their sixth form education at a private school.

Anothermoomin · 27/08/2026 13:44

BoredZelda · 27/08/2026 12:42

This. Our nation’s obsession with high grades and excellent academics is failing not only a whole generation of young people, but large parts of the economy struggling to find labour. The construction industry is short of 400,000 workers. Young people are not being encouraged to enter. Not every child is academic and we need to stop focussing only on those who are.

This

Anothermoomin · 27/08/2026 13:43

redange · 27/08/2026 09:58

So i make a mistake posting upmost opposed to utmost and people condemn me. I make thousands of grammar, punctuation and spelling mistakes that does not define me, rather undiagnosed issues such as Dyslexia Irlens Autism and 60% deafness in left hear might do ! These, have only been diagnosed in the last 10 years and highlight issues I have had all my life. Despite these issues yes i did pass my 11+ and go to University. At times having to rewrite University essays up to three times because of multiple spelling, punctuation and grammar. The content was always strong, perhaps not the spag. So if you want to disagree with my admittedly regressive though i prefer conservative ideas, do so don't criticise them based on missed words, punctuation issues or wrongly spelt words. Remember, due to seven learning disabilities co-existing I have to work twice as hard as many to produce postings of similar clarity to them.

Fully, Selective means an area where the majority or large numbers of pupils will take the 11+. In Kent with the exception of a little strip of land near Tenterden is all 11+. Thus, unless you are close to Sussex you are in the 11+ regardless of whether you want to. Lincolnshire is similar unless you live around Lincoln which is Comprehensive. Buckinghamshire offers schools such as Waddesdon, highlighting how Grammar Schools in a area can lift non Grammar Schools far. Trafford is an area where access is available to Manchester, Cheshire East and Warrington in particular Lymm High, all these areas are Comprehensive. However, it is the school that was deemed thirty years ago as a real 'Secondary Modern' that shines brightly Wellington in Timperley which again has been transformed because it lives around four Grammar Schools !

So the type of difficulties that mean your potential at 11 isn’t obvious. Many people with dyslexia are bright but take longer to find their stride in education. The content is good but the details need a bit of work - grammar schools and the 11+ fails people like you. Children who face the same challenges as you are way more likely to fail but then develop into very strong students but failing the 11+ compounds their sense of failure.

You don’t want to be condemned but you want to condemn many children to thinking of themselves as failures. Just stop and think for yourself and stop repeating the mistakes your mother made. I must question your mothers skills an educationalist if she couldn’t diagnose her own daughters dyslexia.
And before you go on, I’m dyslexic was diagnosed by accident at university, both my D.C. are ND which is one of the reason I did not want them to attend grammar school.

I think this thread is you trying to work out some issue with your mum and sister and you need therapy not a MN thread.

ThatWasAFunDay · 27/08/2026 13:24

I deeply disapprove of selective schools. The emphasis should be on all schools being made to be able to cater to all children. Children should automatically go to their local school. Grammar schools do not promote social mobility and have a negative effect on surrounding non - selective schools.
I bet not one poster on this thread would say that the 11+ is ‘fair’. Children from wealthy backgrounds are shown to be at a massive advantage when it comes to being able to get a place at a grammar school. Yep, I get life isn’t ‘fair’ but the state should be doing everything it can to promote social mobility via education. The outcomes of kids at some schools are awful. Anyone who actually cares about education should be up in arms about that not the fact that already privileged children can be further privileged.

(fyi - my kids were privileged and went to a lovely leafy comp and we would have sent them to private schools if it would have benefitted them)

SadiraOfTyr · 27/08/2026 12:45

redange · 27/08/2026 12:16

Actually a lot are . For your information St Joseph College which is called a Grammar School in Stoke On Trent admits into the Sixth Form with 3 Grade 5 and 3 Grade 4's . This gives you an idea of the depth of what a Grammar School means across the country. you need 53 points in Chelmsford from 8 subjects meaning at least 6 grade 7's . A 'Grammar'. However, the most academic state school in Stoke/ North Staffordshire admits in to the Sixth Form where most Comps South of Oxford would say try the FE College !

I think that gives a detail about different academic profiles ...

We don't even have state school sixth forms, let alone grammars in my county and there is no appetite for them. Our college sends dozens to Oxbridge and hundreds to Russell group universities every year.

BoredZelda · 27/08/2026 12:42

Needmorelego · 26/08/2026 12:37

Only if we have a good selection of alternative Technical schools and other schools that have a specialism like performing and visual arts as well as general education schools (ie comprehensive ones).
11 is too young though for this divide. It should be at 14.
You don't necessarily need to build new schools.
You could just have streaming into the different specialism at age 14 but on the same campus.

Edited

This. Our nation’s obsession with high grades and excellent academics is failing not only a whole generation of young people, but large parts of the economy struggling to find labour. The construction industry is short of 400,000 workers. Young people are not being encouraged to enter. Not every child is academic and we need to stop focussing only on those who are.

noblegiraffe · 27/08/2026 12:16

frozendaisy · 27/08/2026 11:20

One that takes the kids with 8s?

Not going to run.

redange · 27/08/2026 12:16

Actually a lot are . For your information St Joseph College which is called a Grammar School in Stoke On Trent admits into the Sixth Form with 3 Grade 5 and 3 Grade 4's . This gives you an idea of the depth of what a Grammar School means across the country. you need 53 points in Chelmsford from 8 subjects meaning at least 6 grade 7's . A 'Grammar'. However, the most academic state school in Stoke/ North Staffordshire admits in to the Sixth Form where most Comps South of Oxford would say try the FE College !

I think that gives a detail about different academic profiles ...

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Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 12:09

I doubt the deprived areas of the North are gagging to have selective schooling somehow.

redange · 27/08/2026 12:06

Possibly down to the education the child has received from primary school on and socio economic profiles means that a child from Essex achieves higher grades than a child from Darlington does. The perverse thing is perhaps we don't need Grammar Schools in Essex but we do in deprived areas of the North.

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redange · 27/08/2026 12:01

I live in Essex my two DD's are at a Grammar School in Essex starting years 12 and 10 !

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SadiraOfTyr · 27/08/2026 12:00

redange · 27/08/2026 11:56

No I am suggesting there is no selective education available. The selective profile of a child in Essex is different from a selective profile of a child from Darlington. There is plenty of opportunities for Selective and Comprehensives that people on here see as offering the same as Grammar Schools do in Essex. Not so much in Darlington or Stoke on Trent. Though Stoke does have a 'Half' Grammar School in St Joseph College a Catholic School !

"The selective profile of a child in Essex is different from a selective profile of a child from Darlington."

What does this mean? What is the "selective profile" of a child, and why does it vary across the country? I have never heard the term.

Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 11:59

redange · 27/08/2026 11:56

No I am suggesting there is no selective education available. The selective profile of a child in Essex is different from a selective profile of a child from Darlington. There is plenty of opportunities for Selective and Comprehensives that people on here see as offering the same as Grammar Schools do in Essex. Not so much in Darlington or Stoke on Trent. Though Stoke does have a 'Half' Grammar School in St Joseph College a Catholic School !

So you are worried because they don't have a selective option. Most people would move to an area which does, which is the problem - everyone has a scarcity mindset because a select few schools scrape the bottom 30% off their shoes and pretend they have better teachers because of it. They may well do as I suspect the pay is better so they want teachers with results, they can also be selective ... see where the trouble starts? Do you want every decent teacher in your area to move to one school and leave the rest?

Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 11:56

SadiraOfTyr · 27/08/2026 11:49

What are these 'profiles of children' of which you are write? Are you stating that children in the North East are inherently more suited to an academic education than those in Essex?

Maybe our primaries down south should be taking lessons from Ripon in how to create the super-est of super selective academic child....hmmm, would love a source!

redange · 27/08/2026 11:56

No I am suggesting there is no selective education available. The selective profile of a child in Essex is different from a selective profile of a child from Darlington. There is plenty of opportunities for Selective and Comprehensives that people on here see as offering the same as Grammar Schools do in Essex. Not so much in Darlington or Stoke on Trent. Though Stoke does have a 'Half' Grammar School in St Joseph College a Catholic School !

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SadiraOfTyr · 27/08/2026 11:49

redange · 27/08/2026 11:35

No because a top 40% Grammar is more aligned to the profiles of children in the North East. The total lack of any Grammars or even ' Selective' Comps in the North East make this a pressing issue. They are options in Chelmsford/Southend and Colchester for Selective or 'Semi Selective' education and the profiles of children align more to top 20% not 40% !

What are these 'profiles of children' of which you are write? Are you stating that children in the North East are inherently more suited to an academic education than those in Essex?

redange · 27/08/2026 11:45

Ripon Grammar..

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redange · 27/08/2026 11:35

No because a top 40% Grammar is more aligned to the profiles of children in the North East. The total lack of any Grammars or even ' Selective' Comps in the North East make this a pressing issue. They are options in Chelmsford/Southend and Colchester for Selective or 'Semi Selective' education and the profiles of children align more to top 20% not 40% !

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redange · 27/08/2026 11:31

Well it does for the pupils in the North East whose closest Grammar School would be Rippon and only real access to Grammar Education is to board at Rippon Grammar.

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Wipeywipey · 27/08/2026 11:30

redange · 27/08/2026 11:27

No what i was saying we could have three types of Grammar Schools designed for the area concerned. So in Chelmsford you have two Grammars that cater for the top 5% or so that is right for that situation Southend Grammars top15-20% . Thus in somewhere say like Darlington a Grammar School taking the top 40% might be the right type of Grammar School. It being a completely different animal to one in Chelmsford !

I don't understand this - you have kids set to different abilities in super selectives, so presumably what you are saying is they should halve their intake and we build another school for the middle sets and then yet another for the lower set which might enable a few kids who have dyslexia and SEN in...? How is that beneficial economically with a declining birth rate? Not everyone in a Grammar gets straight 9's, most get a mix from 6+.

SadiraOfTyr · 27/08/2026 11:29

redange · 27/08/2026 11:27

No what i was saying we could have three types of Grammar Schools designed for the area concerned. So in Chelmsford you have two Grammars that cater for the top 5% or so that is right for that situation Southend Grammars top15-20% . Thus in somewhere say like Darlington a Grammar School taking the top 40% might be the right type of Grammar School. It being a completely different animal to one in Chelmsford !

So the type of school you have access to remains a postcode lottery, just as it is now. In Chelmsford only the top 5% have the opportunity to go to a grammar, yet in Darlington 40% have the opportunity - and this improves things how?

redange · 27/08/2026 11:27

No what i was saying we could have three types of Grammar Schools designed for the area concerned. So in Chelmsford you have two Grammars that cater for the top 5% or so that is right for that situation Southend Grammars top15-20% . Thus in somewhere say like Darlington a Grammar School taking the top 40% might be the right type of Grammar School. It being a completely different animal to one in Chelmsford !

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