Do you agree with school absence fines?

Brilliant post!!!

I don't agree with holiday fines. They make the government look like they are doing something about attendance but in reality do very little in regard to addressing the main causes of persistent absence.

Fining families whose children have very good (over 97%) attendance but choose to go on holiday for a week only turns parents against schools. It also does not address the actual attendance issues. Apart from that 5 days, that child attends school usually on time every other day.

What really needs the focus is persistent absence. Which believe it or not is not solved by fines. Very very few children who are persistently absent are swanning off on holiday every other week. Most persistently absent children have either one or several of the following; Special educational needs (usually unmet SEN needs), complex medical needs, poor physical health, poor mental health, parents with poor mental health and not enough support, parents with poor physical health and not enough support, parents with addiction issues (drugs/ alcohol/ gambling), parents with unsupported sen needs. Fining solves none of these factors in persistent absence. It requires social services and a myriad of other teams to work together to support a child to be able to attend school.

In the case of many SEN pupils it requires the LA to actually grant an EHPC, find a suitable placement that is able to actually meet needs and fund it adequately then the school to be able to recruit someone able to support that child. At this moment in time, finding a suitable placement that is willing and able to meet needs, has space and the LA is willing to fund is like looking for rocking horse poo.

In the case of poor mental health it requires co-ordination and working with mental health services which for both children and adults are in a dire state of affairs.

In the case of addicted parents it requires work with addiction services, which once again are in a dire state.

Addressing absence due to poor physical health requires our NHS services to run properly and in some cases taking active preventative medical approaches is needed which our NHS is not great at, it's more a reactionary service.

Tackling persistent absence requires, time, resources, multi agency joined up thinking and a lot of money. I would much prefer the level of resources and money going into the fining system be used to actually fund actual boots on the ground support for persistent absence.

The independent school DS attended was very relaxed about days off in term time. So maybe it's not that simple.

No. I think it’s misguided. The problem is school refusal and consistent bad attendance , not a cheap week in Spain once a year.

I think parents are right to feel let down and betrayed, as you put. I had a discussion or two with other parents during 2020/21 about it. Like you wrote, something doesn’t add up. It can’t be a case of only the dates pupils miss when it’s school sanctioned or Government sanctioned don’t matter!

I lived in Wales during Covid, and out of all the UK nations, schools were closed for the longest. Welsh Labour kowtowing to teaching unions was a big part of that, and dare I say it, wanting to be different to what England was doing. There was a ridiculous example when they were allowing schools to return for the last few weeks of term in 2020 before the summer holidays. The Labour fools in Cardiff Bay insisted it was too early for schools to return the same time as in England. They then allowed Welsh schools to reopen about 3 weeks later at the end of June, and said the school term would be extended. From what I reliably heard, they didn’t consult with the councils! Most school staff are only employed on term time contracts and they had no power to make the workers work beyond the school term dates. Therefore, Welsh pupils missed out.

Option 3 here - there shouldn't be fines, and it shouldn't be the parents' decision. It just shouldn't be allowed at all. Fine people for something and they start to regard it as a service they can pay for - "oh well, we can just pay the fine". They need to understand that it's not permitted, end of. A child who is taken out of school gets behind, and then the teacher has to get them caught up, to the detriment of the other kids.

When I was at school in the eighties and nineties, it was made clear that was the rule. One family did it one time, and the kid was expelled. Private school, of course. Shame state schools don't have the same power.

What percentage does unauthorized holidays make up of school absences? I'd imagine we are talking a small percentage.

Yes and just pay the fine

This, and yes after covid a lot of people realised things aren't set in stone like we used to think.

So many children are let down by school system and out of education for weeks even years and we worry about children with a few weeks off. A lot of schools are a mess of noise, violence and substitute teachers and full of SEN children not fitting standard classes ruining it for other children. Bonkers to worry about children off for a few weeks extra a year.

Regardless of fines I don’t believe children should be taken out of school for holidays and no one will change my mind on that one! There is very little in the arsenal for preventing it and if you now stop the fines more people will see it as a green light to go ahead and take the children out of school.

This is not a yes or no IMHO. I think it depends on:

Child's age

I think high school is a definite no for taking kids out of school. Anything under age 11 is debatable and based on circumstances.

Timing
Obviously kids (11 and under) should be in attendance at key times, SATs and other exams are essential and should be mandatory attendance.

Duration
This should be limited to one week per year per child maximum.

Attendance
Holidays in term time should not be permitted if the child has less than 95% attendance for any reason.

We did take our kids out of school twice when they were 5/7 and 6/8 for a few days in January, but they had 100% attendance and in those days it was permitted, so I'm not being hypocritical.

I don't think fines are the way to go because people factor it into the cost of the holiday, I think they should be reported for truancy if the parents fall foul of the rules.

I think the many double standards, “school sanctioned” absence examples don’t help. In addition to school trips throughout the year, which many pupils don’t go on for various reasons, how about pupils that get released from afternoon lessons regularly at least 1 day a week, because they’re playing for the school [insert sport of choice] team? I saw @MermaidMummy06 mention this. That’ll be pupils from at least 2 schools missing lessons any time pupils are released from lessons for inter-schools fixtures. I can guarantee the reaction to this being brought up to someone so against parents taking their kids out of school during term-time would be no better than Vicky Pollard’s, “ yeah, but no, but…”
They’d always miss most of lesson 4 and 5 when I was at school.

On another note, I was quietly pleased to see @Whyarepeople acknowledged closing schools for months on end during the Rona years. I think that really undermined any notion of, “social contract” on this issue (and many others).

As I said take them out of school then and accept the fine.

We wouldn't! If a child is on holiday it is entirely their responsibility to catch up.

If a child completes the work they miss then I have no issue with them going on holiday. If they don't, the parents should be fined.

We have several families who have said they’ve been put off taking term time holidays because of the fines and potential criminal record.

You do realise that a lot of parents in England don't have a lot of choices? It's jo easy to say the things you do but real life can be much more complicated.

Oh don't worry. We relocated at Christmas to a country with much more easy going views on a week or two off school outside exams.

I am an ex teacher, now retired.
I worked in primary schools for over 30 years.

I believe that the imposition of the National Curriculum has completely soured children's experience at Primary.

It's narrow and generally boring with little emphasis upon sparking children's natural curiosity.

Limited Art and Music subjects- P.E. being squeezed out and intolerable pressure upon children and teachers to meet crazy targets.

Attendance is certainly an issue but I completely understand why parents take holiday time .

Ditch the stupid targets, including attendance ( which the teachers have no control over) and concentrate on getting back to making learning interesting and fun.

The Government needs to back off and let headteachers and staff go back to running the schools ( which they managed successfully before all this government interference.)
There is no need for fines.

So take the holidays and accept the fine then!!

So take your kids out and accept the fine then and try your best to catch up the bits of school
your child missed.

What a shoddy experience you had (and that is putting it midly). I’m sadly unsurprised to read it though. I also think it’s keeping up appearances for Ofsted is the only thing that is really cared about.

I always think of a lad, who was in my year throughout secondary school, when the whole attendance vs school attainment debate comes up. Unfortunately, he had a chronic illness and the treatment made him immunocompromised, so we wouldn’t see him for significant periods. He ended up getting some of the best GCSE results in our year group. I don’t think he was a one-off case either. I missed a lot of school during Year 9 thanks to planned surgery and a sudden death in the family. My SATs results were very good (all 7s).