AIBU to question rising private school fees amid declining GCSE results

Teachers are willing to work for less in private just to get away from state. There's so many teachers willing to work in private they can pay less.

GCSE results are likely to decline overall if private schools are less selective and take children with lower academic ability to maintain numbers.

That does not mean GCSEs for a specific child attending that school will be any lower than they would have been. Just that children who were always likely to gain lower grades are now attending.

@Boxoffrogs21 Wycombe Abbey is more selective than Wycombe High. Grammars in Bucks do have a much broader intake in terms of parental background and ability. They are not comparable. The type of girl going to WH is quite different from most at WA and local rich people with bright dc will still target WA! Some go on bursaries too.

Comparing schools is also very difficult. Whst subjects are taken? What are eventual destinations? Are dc doing media studies and photography, or Physics and MFLs? School are all different and direct comparisons are difficult. However most private schools will have much better teaching facilities and sports areas for example.

Private schools are not as attractive to work in as they used to be. Recently saw an SLT post advertised at £15k less than the state sector and no TPS. Financial constraints are affecting staffing.

Wycombe Abbey is one of the most prestigious girls’ boarding schools in the country, with about 30% of the 6-700 students being international. Wycombe High has 1,200-1,300 students, 10% of whom are eligible for free school meals (obviously not as high as many schools, but for a selective school that’s quite high - other Buckinghamshire grammar schools in the area are around 3%).

As for Lancaster and Winchester being similar in terms of ‘geography’… they’re other ends of the country, and there is quite a substantial difference between Lancashire and Hampshire, at least on a UK scale, so I’m not sure what geography you’re thinking of here. Demographics of the local area may well be similar, but you’ll find that as Winchester is another very prestigious boarding school (20%+ international) that’s not particularly relevant.

I have no particular beef with your point - I was educated at a private school and have taught at independent day and boarding schools, as well as state comprehensives and grammar schools, and am confident that you get a lot for your money going private in many cases. The top public schools like Winchester, Eton, etc. are another level again. But let’s not use silly comparisons - compare independent day schools to state grammars if you want to make a sensible point. Here’s one: the Abbey School in Reading (independent all-girls day school, selective top c.40-50%) vs. Kendrick School at the end of the same road (state all-girls grammar, super-selective top c.3-5%) - Abbey = 87% Grades 7-9 (with 40% Grade 9); Kendrick = 90% Grades 7-9. Kendrick much more selective but scarcely beats the Abbey’s grades. In fact, the Abbey tends to have fewer of the really top ability students, because they go to Kendrick for free. (I don’t work at the Abbey - this is not an advert! But it looks like pretty good value for money to me.)

I have a feeling you are the same poster as the OP in the A levels thread. Your replies on this are very similar and repetitive.
I'm out

@MeetMeOnTheCorner - most of the Greater London ones are superselective with either very large catchment areas or no catchment area. They are also very international in that the student body is largely first and second generation immigrant children. Kent is now Reform currently so not sure what would happen if they messed with their county wide system.

@Araminta1004 Well they tried before didn’t they - in the 70s and succeeded to a large extent. Only Bucks and Kent have county wide grammars I think plus a few metropolitan outliers. In Bucks there’s certainly pressure on primary admissions although the grammars have always taken many dc from preps.

Yes, it is harder to get into grammar schools in Greater London too now - most are on the outskirts, but plenty within a commute from mainline stations. The waiting lists are hardly moving either. This is what Labour did with their VAT on private schools, increase the competition for all sought after state schools.
So what next? Are they going to try and destroy grammar schools as well now to bring them down a notch? Would they actually destroy the very schools that provide some academic competition to selective private schools?

Depends on how you look at it

So if state pupils are obtaining similar academic results “for free” and without the advantages private schools can provide it might indicate that those pupils are just better academically, so why shouldn’t they get the same grades, and why shouldn’t their families also be pleased with them?

Surely it’s better for everyone?

If state school’s results are equal or better locally than private it means parents who might consider private, just for academic promise, won’t have to spend on private eitger

Trafford.
Getting into on of the grammar schools is significantly harder than it was a few years ago. It's got more competitive and more kids are tutored. This has been amplified with Trafford being singled out by Hong Kong property brokers as one of the best places in country to live for affordability, quality of life and education standards. This has brought Chinese style hothoused kids into the frame. There's also been a boom in kids for the years currently going through High School (the birth rate drops off a cliff in a year or two).

The pushy parents who don't get their kids into grammar school because they arent academic enough, send them to private school if they can to avoid the comprehensives which don't have the best reputations.

So the top tier of kids go to grammar schools and the rich but not so top tier kids go to private schools.

The grammar schools in Trafford have extraordinarily low rates of SEN kids.

Conversely there's also a lot of better off parents with kids with SEN who sent them private because of the better staff ratios.

I imagine the pattern is replicated in any area with grammar schools/affluent area.

It therefore shouldn't be a surprise to see this pattern.

In high birth years, you would expect the pass rate to go up, because the admission criteria will be higher for that year group due to additional competition and demand. You would expect the opposite to happen when the crashes birthrate hits high school. Trafford is so expensive, there is a massive drop in pupils, so the standards are likely to slip with more children bussing in from further afield.

@Sidedoors I don’t think you understand what quality is. It’s not just exam results.

Very happy to pay £250k for an excellent education. And by excellent I do consider exam performance (well ahead of local apples to apples comparison) but also consider extracurriculars, variety, depth of learning (hands on not just rote exam oriented teaching), as well as as pastoral care.

the biggest predictor of success is love of learning / learning mindset and that is what I pay for. Even if my kids end up with middling exam scores they are curious, positive, engaged students and their school has been a major factor in that. In the real world a middling degree with the right attitude beats exam performance any day of the week,

Interesting, as PP said I do think the internet makes accessing resources easter for dc

as i pointed out above; the fact that they are comparing grammars to the whole host of independents which includes; special schools and technical colleges really negates the findings.
i suspect data has been cherry picked.

@Sidedoors- does all the Ofqual data you’re analysing include iGCSEs? I may be wrong but I don’t think it does, in which case the numbers are pretty meaningless.
You seem very invested in it all?!

Independent schools are not just about buying results. It’s ethos, who you are educated with, networking, inspirational speakers and first class facilities amongst other things. Results are not the whole story. Plus much longer day which assists working parents.

just for fun i googled results for wycombe abbey vs wycombe high both in the same geographical area, both girls only and both selective.
wycombe abbey out performed wycombe high significantly.
again based on geography and demographics google suggested lancaster royal grammar school was comparable to winchester college and again independnent outperformed state significantly. in the case of the boys schools; win col 93% achieved a 7 or higher vs lrgs 64% received a 7 or higher.

Whatever school you went to clearly wasn't worth the time or the (taxpayers'?) money if it failed to teach you how to write in full English sentences, OP.

Well mathematically its not surprising that grammar do so well they are the cream of the crop of selection because you have

• private prep parents
• all state parents
• all having been tutored
• selective so they can ask kids to leave and dont need the money
• the grammar areas will have higher SATs scores too and bring up the ability of all in the areas ie in london

private arent all selective and need to fill up spaces. Will lose out students to grammar. Many of these students and likewise grammar will have been tutored for both entry tests.

being able to exclude or avoid taking the 1/3 of students likely to get below a grade 4 gcse is a huge advantage. And also have fewer sen and disruptive kids.
However i still think the grades are pretty crazy high as suggest some are taking rather average kids who elsewhere would get 6-7 grades and getting them all7-9.
But is that mainly exam technique from teachers
how many private students /grammar are also getting some amount of 1-2-1 tutoring. In fact thats likely even higher in grammar as they havent paid for education.
Possibly not that hard to bring up a bright kid from 7 to 9 with tutoring just during y11. Also because they often are already ahead academically in many subjects.

Plus obviously bright kids compete and can work together and bring grades up

Are you the same poster who started the thread on A Level results, repeated the same response over and over again when in reality you just have a chip on your shoulder about private schools whilst paying for your child to attend one?
because it’s looking likely!

so in england there are 163 grammar schools which are selective at age 11.
there are about 850-900 mainstream senior independent schools not all of which are selective.
there are approximately 550-600 special senior independent schools.
in there they have included "city technology colleges"
in your statistics i would want to be comparing apples to apples; 163 grammar vs similarly selective independent schools.
last i looked due to some schools doing IB which were not included in the government statistics it was near impossible to get a good comparison.
equally poorly lumped together; free, secondary moderns, comprehensives and academies don't produce numbers anywhere near the gammars or independents but again you would have to disselect some of the students who are so academically challenged that mainstream school is unsuitable in the first place.
maybe if all students did cat 4's at age 10-11 and were then compared and filtered as to what schools they attended you could get a better picture 5+ yrs down the road, but that wouldn't account for family and environmental factors.

i'm not believing your data, i think it's biased.