To leave early after my dad told off my son?

As others have said, to your ds ' we're staying with grandad until Sunday, thank you for listening to mummy and sitting nicely at the table' set him up to succeed. If he then repeats the poor behaviour, remove him straight away so your dad doesn't need to intervene, feel wound up etc, it needn't become the elephant in the room. Don't give ds hundred million chances, particularly in an older person's home, say it, mean it, own it if you can.
You are already aware where his behaviour slipped yesterday and you know your dad won't bend, say sorry etc so don't look for it. Get yourself outside in the beauty of Wales, play, laugh, and lower your own feelings. Your dad won't change, you're not going to magically make a shy 5yr old not shy etc, but you can find a way to rub along for another 48 hours without looking for a solution, because there isn't one!

Sorry, but clearly your dad felt that you were not responding and stepped in because your DS’s behaviours was negatively impacting everyone else. You’re at fault here.

Even when my DD was a little over 2, I picked her up in a restaurant and took her outside because she was having a tantrum. She was not allowed back until she had calmed down. I would remove my DC from a family meal or social gathering every time if there was misbehaviour - and yes, jumping up and down/burping would have seen immediate removal and threat of early bed (alone) and no supper. A threat that I was prepared to follow through on and my kids would know that because I always follow through. Learned the hard way to have a set of preplanned consequences [yes, punishments] because occasionally ended up cutting my own nose off to spite my face by lashing out.

You affirmed his appalling behaviour by taking him to bed and remaining with him - that boy now has no idea which way is up and he certainly doesn’t understand that his behaviour was appalling because you’ve given him a cuddle and confirmed that granddad was wrong. You are the problem here.

He cares so much about manners but does not lead by example. Raising your voice at the dinner table, reducing a child to tears, making guests feel unwelcome in your home, historically refusing to apologise for wrong doing etc.

He cares about people’s manners towards him, yet his own leave a lot to be desired.

@Sparklesbigtoe , you don't have to visit your father. It sounds really difficult. Can you get a bus, taxi or train home? I would be tempted to put it on a credit card, given the situation.

I would be tempted to point out that DS's behaviour can be explained in large part by being 5 years old, your father does not have such an excuse for his behaviour.

I'm in my sixties and still almost painfully shy. Most people don't realise because I have perfected the art of 'fake it 'til you make it but inside it's a constant struggle. The absolute bliss of a day when I don't have to talk to anyone but DH and adult DC is indescribable.

That being said, it is rude for your DC not to respond when spoken to. If he is too shy to should be teaching him to make eye contact, smile and nod or wave.

Food should never be used as a reward or a punishment; that creates incredibly unhealthy habits with food that can last a lifetime.

Please do not remove food from your son for bad behaviour; it is not a logical or natural consequence.

Just a word of warning Op: lots of people think their abusive parents have changed, because they are no longer around the triggering behaviour of children. Once grandchildren come along it’s amazing how quickly they go straight back to being exactly who you remember them being.

BA in Armchair Assessments from the University of Life?

A lot of these responses are ridiculous. He’s 5 years old and you were dealing with it. My 4 year old struggles at dinner time - won’t stay sitting down, doesn’t want to talk, doesn’t usually want to eat - he’s exhausted by 4pm. He can manage it at breakfast and at lunch time and in nursery but by dinner time it’s just way too much. We don’t usually go out for dinner for this reason but on the very odd occasion we do I wouldn’t allow anybody to have him in tears for something like this.

If talking to your Dad doesn’t work then get a taxi.

erm... where to start with this one!

I agree that you have nothing to apologise for and I'm surpised at all of the responses that suggest you should grovel and ask for forgiveness. Your son was right to apologise for burping at the table but your dad has seeminly decades of bad behaviour to apologise for as well. If he won't then you can take it as given that he is not sorry, does not think he's done wrong, and does not intend to reflect or change.

If your dad has a history of being controlling and abusive towards you, you are unreasonable to be taking your son to stay with him in the first place.

You are being totally unreasonable about basing your decision to stay on your father telling your son off for behaving so poorly at the table and for not listening to his mother.

How lucky you are to have such a dad, who cares about manners. It is much better manners are taught in the family. Otherwise life itself will teach your son table manners and it is a totally different story. We have almost nothing left in this country, no industry, no culture, no faith, we only have manners left. This is literally the only distinguishing feature, left of Britishness - I am reminded of it every time I go to France, Italy or Germany, where I am horrified at their so-called 'manners'. Be thankful you have a dad who cares.

You're dad sounds like an awful man. Sorry you've had to deal with him and the MN vipers who love to kick anyone who is down. My first 2 children were a breeze to parent, they quickly learned what was expected of them. My 3rd not so much. People need to realise that it's not as simple as consistent boundaries and consequences for some children and your child was in an unfamiliar and probably scary environment.
I hope the next couple of days go okay OP. I'd suggest you don't go back there again. No need to tell your dad that until you're back home and have some distance from him. Don't let him emotionally abuse your son like he has you.

Have you seen him at all today? If you’re worried that asking him to take you to the station would be more awkward, why don’t you go downstairs and get an idea of what the vibe is like today? If he’s pleasant maybe just stick it out until Sunday and don’t plan an overnight visit again. If he’s arsey then it’s easier to just ask to leave isn’t it? X

@Sparklesbigtoe I think this is excellent advice.

Talk to your father calmly now it's the next day. Say that while you appreciate your son was behaving badly at the table and you understand why he felt the need to intervene, the end result was actually worse than before. What your son responds to and what your dad defaults to aren't a good fit

You and he need to find a better way of being.

So, with 5 year old, "We're having a reset. Fresh start. Everyone is going to do their b st today and have a fun day."

To your dad, "Show me some faith. I know you love us and it would help me if you had confidence that I will get it right in my own time. Shouting about where I've gone wrong makes me feel anxious and pull away."

That is the normal and right approach. I have two mother in a laws and my own mum - they all leave me and my husband to it

I think you should go - tell him that you're bringing your son home early as a punishment for his behaviour, a white lie that your father can't argue with, as it sounds as if you don't want to tell him how upset you are.

You do need to think about ways to manage your sons behaviour though - the approach you've been taking to date doesn't seem to be working.k

I won’t post my credentials but let’s just say I know what I’m talking about.
Lack of empathy is a huge indicator of narcissism and anyone who read the description of the OP’s son’s behaviour and decided to tell her that it was disgusting, in light of everything else she shared in that post, tells me a lot about the person reading it.

I am a single parent too, as difficult as it is, I think you are letting the team down BIG TIME.

I doubt very much your child was frozen with fear earlier when your dad talked to him if he was still behaving like a little shit at the table in front of him. Good on your dad to pull both of you on your behaviour and lack of parenting, hopefully this is a wake up call for both of you that leads to better outcomes in the future.

You clearly weren’t addressing it effectively - he doesn’t need dessert removed, he needs to be told clearly and firmly to stop pissing about. You say he was about to behave nicely but you don’t know that. It really doesn’t hurt children to be told to pack it in, and it’s ok if they’re tearful after being told off.

I understand you feel your dad was emotionally abusive to you, in which case I wouldn’t put myself in the position of staying with him. It does sound like a whole production for something that was a telling off.

Your son should also know that he needs to respond when someone speaks to them. He might not have an answer to their question but acknowledge that they’ve been spoken too. How’s school isn’t that abstract a question.

Op the bit I am confused about is the fact that you said ‘he kept getting up from the table & burping,’ & you were still only giving him a warning about if he did it again. Had you not said something after all the previous times he had got up /burped. I’m not surprised your dad had had enough as from what you’ve told us, no actual parenting had actually happened.

Ignore the posters with the perfect children (who are probably controlling narcissists themselves) telling you how awful your son is. It sounds like pretty standard 5-year old behaviour to me.
Here is everything that is wrong with MN.
Ignore athe majority of advice because everyone who disagrees with you is "narcissist ".
Why is it necessary to throw around psycobabble to try and increase your credibility.
Everyone has different life experiences and that is why tgey may give conflicting advice, but in the end the OP will make a considered decision.
no need to race to the bottom with kichen psychology.

People are saying that you shouldn't have gone to visit because you said that your father is ' Controlling and emotionally abusive '. It will be a shock for a 5 year old to be pulled up in this way, I am not really a stickler for strict table manners, but continually burping at the table is very bad manners, unless your son has a medical problem. 5 year olds do sometimes have odd ways of getting reactions from adults they want to engage with ie the continual burping may have been his way getting his Grandfather's attention if previous attempts have failed, but the attention he actually got was very negative and 'old fashioned'.Some people just aren't good at engaging with young children. My own Dad wasn't. Asking about school was your Dad's attempt at engaging, I wouldn't call that an 'abstract' question, however getting information about school from a child is usually like getting blood from a stone! I would be inclined to stick this visit out as it's only a few more days. If your Dad had shouted at or even hit your son, then end of relationship obviously. It will be interesting to see how your son behaves next meal time. When you get home maybe you should have a good think about your relationship with your Dad , past , present and future, you may decide to go LC . You could write to him to express how hurtful and damaging his parenting of you was, and that you are on a hair trigger when you think he is behaving that way to your son. You say he has mellowed and certainly my Dad showed his love in more practical ways. My own child had a very similar relationship with my Dad, that is he made no allowances for their age. Ironically in his later years they became very close, and he came to appreciate his grandchild and came as near as he ever did to acknowledging that he hadn't been the most doting of Grandfather's, but he was never anything other genuinely himself. So maybe what is needed is time and perspective for the relationship to develop. I was a single parent in the 90s and will never forget the shame and stigma visited on single parents by the Tories at that time, we were public enemy number one, so I get that you feel vulnerable and defensive especially when your own father is critical.