To think that a comfortable middle class existence is basically unattainable for the vast majority of people.

Exactly this
I hate seeing Andy Burnham etc portray the SE as some bastion of wealth and comfort.

Housing costs mean that people can be absolutely scraping by even in modest houses and on "high salaries"

But yes I think life has got so much more expensive. We live in the south east, two six figure salaries, one car and we still budget. That’s what surprises me, I thought we’d have more freedom when reaching this point salary wise. Childcare is almost £5k a month. Mortgage (we live in a normal 4 bed house in a commuter town) is about £4K a month (was £3k before the mortgage rises and a shorter tenor given our ages). Council tax now over £300 a month, train fares gone up to almost £40 a day each. So that’s around £800 to £1k a month just on commute. We don’t eat out, don’t buy coffee out, we get takeaways probably once every three months. I only cut my hair twice a year, and never get manicures or pedicures etc. We do travel as have family living abroad we want to see. I wonder how people would attain a middle class lifestyle on £60k net in the south east with young children

I think it depends how recent your experience of nursery is. Me and my friends have similar earnings. Was just under £2k per child per month for a nursery place 3.5 years ago. After the min wage increase and the NI for employers hike, and the expansion of free hours, our nursery bill for two children was closer to £5.5k a month for 4.5 days a week. The nanny is marginally cheaper, but means less running around before and after work, and more play dates, relaxation time, ability to see them on breaks and lunches on our non commuting days. A lot of my friends shifted kids out of nursery also, as extra fees were levied on the hourly rates

I would imagine accommodation and travel would easily be half that amount.

Then £250 a day is easily spent on 4 people on holiday in capital cities like London and Paris. For a main meal out plus other meals/ drinks. Plus activities, entrance fees etc. It’s only £60 odd per person per day.

When paying for a family it adds up quickly!

How did you spend £500 a day? What on?

Agree. We just had 9 days in France and London and spent about £4.5k all in! Stayed in cheap places in Paris and London and then a lovely airbnb with pool in South of France for 5 days with a mixture of eating out and cooking ourselves. Not hugely extravagant but comfortable (e.g. a bit of clothes shopping) and it still cost that much! Easily done with a family of 4 in August

Cornwall is a very poor area though (I don't mean this as a criticism). It's hidden behind the fact that it is a very popular tourist destination including among the wealthy and by the fact that many wealthy people.own homes there. It's beautiful but also seriously suffering from the decline of both mining and fishing. So it makes absolute sense that someone living there who doesn't fall into the category of externally/independently wealthy (because of family wealth or being an investment banker in London) would be struggling in the same way someone in the North East would be struggling

But that experience is not replicated across the nation. Locally, in SE Cornwall, we have a high proportion of older folk, on basic pensions: they are not splurging, and a lot of people in poor health. According to my GP, the health stats are only not quite as bad as the worse parts of the NW. Our local community comprehensive takes (and streams) all the kids. The smart ones do okay because their parents are educated professionals or business oriented tradies with strong work ethics. Surprisingly few fall through the cracks at the end of the day, but some do and they are always sad stories. I have lived here for about 40 years and most teenaged tearaways are fairly reliable by the time they are 33. Most settle into doing work like contracting or window cleaning, and do it well. But they are never going to become the wealthy upper middle class or marry into it.

I have one child, born and brought up very MC, but very dyslexic, so not ever a candidate for a respectable white collar paper-pushing job. But far from stupid.

You can have a comfortable existence without subscribing to a lot of the crap that people "need" to do, ie trips to Disneyland and Lapland, owning expensive cars, being a member of super expensive gyms etc.

Remember that the middle class aren't the middle class in terms of numbers in the old definition. The working class were much more numerous than the middle class and the middle class much more numerous than the upper class.

A lot of people today think they are middle class because they are white collar and doing jobs that previously only the traditional middle class used to do doesn't mean they actually are. They are more of a new breed of "white collar" working class rather than a group that equates to the traditional middle class.

The traditional class system has now been severely scrambled, with people like builders capable of earning hundreds of K per year while some university educated managers are barely above minimum wage yet still consider themselves "middle class".

@silverbirches sounds similar to my childhood. Tbh I don't know why certain hobbies are seen as middle class. I was one of the few that went to museums. My mother was a historian.
We didn't have bowling etc until I was in my twenties and my mother would think it wasn't quite the ticket.

I was brought up in a thoroughly working-class single parent household on a council estate, with almost no money to spare. Ironically, the three things I enjoyed the most were horse riding (helped out at the stables mucking-out for free rides), ballet (classes the same price as any other dance style) and museums. My absolute favourite thing to do on the rare chance I had to go to London was to spend hours and hours in the Natural History Museum. Should I have ignored the so-called middle class hobbies and found working class ones instead?

I am a single parent of 2 and i am able to have a decent lifestyle on 1salary. Middle class? What even is that? Class definitely exists but the boundaries are blurred. Im not even sure its about money.

Ridiculous post.

It is really difficult to say.
Some things are cheaper and some things more expensive.
A small house in the area I live, is likely to be at least 450k, with a mortgage to match.
I was not brought up with having a meal out once a week, and neither were my DC.
And two cars seems a bit extravagent, in my view.
We did not go abroad as a family until my DC were teenagers.
So I guess we did not have a middle class life.
However, my DC had some after school activities.
When I was growing up, NO ONE had their own TV; if you had one at all, you RENTED it.
Obviously, I have retired, but this shows how this has changed over the years.
The things that we are obliged to buy, is an internet subscription, and a mobile phone subscription of some sort. Plus the phone to go with it, and usually a computer at home as well.
These things are technically NOT compulsory, but you are more or less are expected to have both items these days.
So what I am really saying is that a young family today will be expected to have a lot of items that we did not have to have when I was growing up, and maybe some of htem, not when my DC were growing up.

What exactly is “middle class”? Is it the type of work, or the amount of pay received? A plumber can earn far more than a teacher?

I disagree. The upper middle class are absolutely splurging in the way you suggest they are not. I live in an affluent part of the SE and there are loads of SAH mums, people living in mansions (which are regularly sold within weeks of going on the market), kids at private school, nannies etc. What’s most interesting though is the families that are clearly living off debt and trying to enter this lifestyle when clearly they are not able to do it. It’s like having their children around more affluent kids and parents is going to change their life or lifestyle. Very strange

Maybe I should say that we don't need to hang on to every penny for ourselves because we both braved out self employment and started our own companies 30 years ago. I really wouldn't take that chance under a Labour Government, and certainly not now. This Government is the most anti-business administration I have seen in 50 years of adulthood. Do not expect prosperity.

My DC just bought a small house, outright, for cash, in a small Midland city. Our inheritances, that we don't need at 70, passed on by deed of variation plus part of our saved DC pension lump sum, means that a gardener owns a property that will accommodate a small family without any fears that anyone can rip life apart for profit. It's not posh, but it's a nice Victorian 2 up 2 down. It's comfortable and convenient, being 13 minutes level walk to the city centre. I would happily live in it as an old widow. It's exactly the same floor plan as the house my DM lived in until she was nearly 90, with a stairlift the only age concession.

Absolutely I have also seen this! My geography teacher in high school lived in the posh part of my city - my mother was friends of his family, that house now would probably be 800k plus, don’t know anyone doing teaching who can afford that kind of mortgage!

That makes more sense

Hi @dottondool , so i probably should add i get 700 child support monthly for 2 children. I am on my credit card each month though and eating into my savings. Its a stretch but my choice to go private.

Public school to me means a form of private hence me mentioning it but yes agree to disagree

I clarified what I meant by education. And I didn’t mention private, I did mention public school. Private schools are a conversation all by themselves !. Those that are very good versus those that are exploiting aspirational parents but the school is actually pretty useless in terms of education.

A degree is needed for all manner of jobs these days.
And many unnecessarily so. Yes it is expensive. Many people from all backgrounds go.

But we will have to agree to differ. Or we will go round in circular conversations.

@Cranberryhead how do you live if 60k
of your 100k is on fees?!

100k gross is 68k net but before pension

I always think it takes a lot to live well in London where i am. I earn circa 100K as a single parent. No mortgage as i bought over 20 years ago in London. I live relatively frugally - no big holidays or a car but i do have school fees of around 60K a year. I top this up with savings. I have worked since i graduated so built up a pot of savings. I can afford to eat out regularly if i wanted to - and i could buy what i want in terms of clothing - but i dont really. I also dont drink - and i think eating out is so much cheaper without this.

Everyone i know is on good incomes but finding it hard - so i think it must be near impossible to live well in London these days/let alone get on the property ladder.