Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Lucy Letby (2)

644 replies

Oftenaddled · 30/07/2026 10:01

Not only the second thread of course, but maybe with them filling so fast it is time to start numbering them?

OP posts:
Thread gallery
12
Oftenaddled · 16/09/2026 19:22

Dolphin37 · 16/09/2026 17:13

High levels of insulin combined with low levels of C-peptide are considered in science and law to be unambiguous proof of the administration of exogenous insulin

Then why wasn't Letby (or someone else) charged with attempting to poison Child Y, who had higher insulin than Child F and Child L?

They aren't, of course. Both in this country and in the US, defendents have been found not guilty based on uncertainty about such test results. The jury in Lucy Letby's case was wrongly informed that no such uncertainty exists.

OP posts:
Oftenaddled · 16/09/2026 19:19

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 16:51

I admire your optimism but the argument is rubbish from beginning to end. Nobody from management was particularly concerned by the deaths. This came from the doctors on the ward who repeatedly described this pattern as extremely unusual. On Casualty, unexpected and unexplained deaths are plenty. Not so much in real life. Why would these doctors be so keen to paint these deaths as murders when absolutely nobody was labelling them as such? There is simply no reason for this whatsoever. It’s sad that you and so many others are so invested in defending a murderer of premature babies but I guess everyone gets their kicks in different ways. It’s amazing the reaches you have to engage in to make your story vaguely plausible.

I would also ask, do you also believe that Ben Geen, another killer nurse that Mark McDonald blusters about being wrongfully convicted, is innocent? The dude who was found with a syringe full of the drug used to kill people on him? Because MM is just as clear that he also didn’t do it, is a scapegoat etc.

Managers were extremely concerned about the deaths - they, not the consultants, downgraded the unit and insisted on keeping it downgraded. They also commissioned a series of external investigations. You are vastly over simplifying things there.

OP posts:
FrippEnos · 16/09/2026 18:21

isthisaplum · 16/09/2026 18:13

I suspect the narrative is very much ‘hero consultants / evil Letby / indifferent or arrogant hospital managers.’

It does seem to be that way.

But then it started from a place of bias.

And I'm not sure how anybody can trust an enquiry that doesn't highlight the fact that the consultants where not on the ward everyday.

Frequency · 16/09/2026 18:16

Dolphin37 · 16/09/2026 17:01

The Thirlwall report accurately described her as an unpleasant liar

Basing that on one private text where she said "Dad was on the floor crying" while the mother doesn't recall him being literally on the floor is pretty weak sauce. It's like if she wrote "Dad was bawling his eyes out" when his eyes weren't literally out. When that's all that was found from such an exhaustive investigation, for Thirlwall to then declare that Letby was "repeatedly untruthful in her dealings with friends and colleagues", is a much bigger exaggeration than anything Letby said, in a context where unfair exaggerations are much less excusable.

Edited

It's a saying. I often say DH's death floored me. I spent precisely 0 seconds on the floor while dealing with his death.

When people comment on my dog's energy, I tell them, "This is nothing. He had me on my knees for weeks when he was a puppy." I wasn't literally on my knees. He probably would have severely injured me if I tried it.

In a text to my friend a few minutes ago, I replied that my driving test was "the single worst experience of my entire life. Honestly, after that I'd be happy to never step foot in a car again, never mind drive one."

It was not the single worst experience of my life; I can think of many, many things I have experienced that were far worse. My next message was to my mum, letting her know I'm taking the car to Tesco tonight, so the second bit was a "lie" too.

isthisaplum · 16/09/2026 18:13

FrippEnos · 16/09/2026 18:10

Does anything in the Thirlwall Inquiry say why the consultants didn't do their job correctly?

I suspect the narrative is very much ‘hero consultants / evil Letby / indifferent or arrogant hospital managers.’

FrippEnos · 16/09/2026 18:10

Does anything in the Thirlwall Inquiry say why the consultants didn't do their job correctly?

nomas · 16/09/2026 17:57

Thanks, the transcript does say 'Dr Gibbs has accepted collective failure for Consultants for not viewing those results.'

But I can't see anything in the report that says consultants were not responsible for checking results of the tests they had ordered (when they were next on shift).

EasternStandard · 16/09/2026 17:36

isthisaplum · 16/09/2026 17:26

She may have lied; she may be unpleasant. I don’t know because I don’t know her, although no one close to her has stated this.

But her character is not on trial. The only important thing in this case is if the crimes she’s accused of (and convicted of) actually happened.

Yes exactly.

Dolphin37 · 16/09/2026 17:29

nomas · 16/09/2026 17:24

In April 2016, another neonate – Baby L – had extremely high levels of insulin and very low levels of C-peptide. The laboratory again called the hospital and spoke to the duty biochemist who called the neonatal ward but, unable to speak to anybody, settled for updating the infant’s medical records with the test results. They went unnoticed by the doctor who was caring for Baby L at the time. (Known as “Dr A” in the original trial and as “Dr U” in the Thirlwall Inquiry, his identity was revealed as Dr Mark Deakin after his death in July. He was described as Letby’s “boyfriend” by the prosecution, although there is no reason to believe he was her accomplice.)

Did Letby's "boyfriend" really not notice the test results of high levels of insulin, I wonder, or did he turn a blind eye. Only he knew, and perhaps Letby.

He wasn't on shift when the result came back: https://www.reddit.com/r/LucyLetbyTrials/comments/1whfuen/comment/pa22y1p/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

isthisaplum · 16/09/2026 17:26

She may have lied; she may be unpleasant. I don’t know because I don’t know her, although no one close to her has stated this.

But her character is not on trial. The only important thing in this case is if the crimes she’s accused of (and convicted of) actually happened.

nomas · 16/09/2026 17:24

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 16:52

From the Spectator:

archive.ph/1OYok

Lady Thirlwall prefaced the launch of her report yesterday with the same message that she launched her public inquiry with two years ago. This was not about the guilt or innocence of Lucy Letby, she said. That matter has been decided in two trials and two appeals. The Thirlwall Inquiry is about how Letby was allowed to get away with it.

Despite this caveat, I would bet that most people’s motivation for reading her surprisingly gripping report is to seek out evidence of Letby’s guilt or innocence. There are plenty of nuggets of fresh information, but little for Letby’s band of supporters to cling onto. The three volumes of the Thirlwall Report are not the case for prosecution. They are not even half of the case for the prosecution. But if the report achieves nothing else, it must surely convince any fair-minded reader that there was a spate of unexpected, sudden deaths and collapses in the Countess of Chester Hospital under Letby’s watch between June 2015 and June 2016 that cannot be explained by infection or bacteria or under-staffing. There is a wealth of evidence showing that these incidents were considered alarming at the time by doctors and nurses alike. They were not retrospectively badged as suspicious in some bizarre attempt to frame an innocent nurse. Since the aim of the report is to learn lessons for the NHS, Thirlwall’s story starts and ends in the hospital. The Letbyist’s bête noire Dewi Evans, the paediatrician who found forensic evidence of foul play, never gets a mention since he was not involved until the year after the last murder. Instead, we have an account of mounting unease among medics at a neonatal unit who are seeing things that they have never seen before and which they cannot explain. This is not a story about the “how” but the “who”. And since the “how” was explained in court and the “who” is serving fifteen whole life sentences in HMP Bronzefield, the only question is why she wasn’t caught sooner.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but since no one saw Letby doing anything untoward and her modus operandi was still a mystery when she was taken off the ward in July 2016, one must be realistic about this. Even if she had been arrested in June 2015, when she had already killed three babies and attacked another, it is far from certain that she would have been convicted. Sending a few misleading text messages and being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not enough to convince a jury of guilt. Yes, there was some medical evidence too, but it didn’t point directly to Letby. But, as Lady Thirlwall argues, Letby could plausibly have been stopped in early August. The biggest missed opportunity was the failure to recognise clear evidence of insulin poisoning in a routine insulin test. High levels of insulin combined with low levels of C-peptide are considered in science and law to be unambiguous proof of the administration of exogenous insulin. Baby F, who was suffering from severe hypoglycemia, had a very high insulin reading and levels of C-peptide so low that they could not even be measured. The Senior Clinical Scientist at the laboratory that ran the tests phoned the hospital to alert staff to this, but the doctor at the Countess considered the possibility of deliberate insulin poisoning to be “so fantastical and unlikely” that she did not bother mentioning it to anybody. As Lady Thirlwall says, the results “should have led immediately to a call to the police”. Had it done so, Baby F could have been Letby’s last victim. Instead, the last child on the indictment was Baby Q. The victims are listed in alphabetical order.

Astonishingly, this happened twice. In April 2016, another neonate – Baby L – had extremely high levels of insulin and very low levels of C-peptide. The laboratory again called the hospital and spoke to the duty biochemist who called the neonatal ward but, unable to speak to anybody, settled for updating the infant’s medical records with the test results. They went unnoticed by the doctor who was caring for Baby L at the time. (Known as “Dr A” in the original trial and as “Dr U” in the Thirlwall Inquiry, his identity was revealed as Dr Mark Deakin after his death in July. He was described as Letby’s “boyfriend” by the prosecution, although there is no reason to believe he was her accomplice.)

Unaware of the insulin evidence, all the doctors had to go on was the coincidence of Letby’s presence. The death of Baby I in October 2015 raised their suspicions to new heights and they began to think the unthinkable. There had now been five highly unusual deaths in five months in a hospital which normally saw two or three deaths a year, typically of infants born with congenital abnormalities.

Since the start of the year, there had been seven deaths on the neonatal unit and Letby had been on shift for all of them. Only two involved congenital abnormalities. A shift chart showing Letby’s invariable presence at the scene of the possible crimes was drawn up but when it was e-mailed to the Head of Risk and Patient Safety by Dr Brearey as the Appendix to a ‘Thematic Review of Neonatal Mortality’ it went unseen. The recipient defended herself at the Thirwall Inquiry by explaining that she received more than 100 emails a day and didn’t scroll all the way down to the bottom of the document. She complained that “if Dr Brearey felt that he needed me to do something, he should have stipulated that very clearly in the email”, a response that Lady Thirlwall described as “unacceptable”.

The tipping point was reached in June 2016 when Letby was cot-side as two healthy triplets suddenly died within a day of each other. “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?”, she said while Baby P was being resuscitated, a comment that shocked the doctor she was talking to. Incredibly, even after this, several nurse managers resisted attempts to remove Letby from the unit – not to have her arrested or sacked, but to merely have her suspended from duty while an investigation could be undertaken. It is these managers who bear the brunt of Lady Thirlwall’s scorn while the doctors are largely treated sympathetically. “Acknowledgement of their errors and failings was characteristic of the consultant paediatricians”, she writes. “The doctors’ reflective and self-critical approach is in marked contrast to that of the managers to whom they turned for assistance.”

On Monday, two of the supposedly world-leading experts who have been recruited to come up with alternative interpretations of the evidence announced that they will no longer be working with the defence team. Helen Shannon, a chemical engineer, and Geoff Chase, a professor of bioengineering, became part of Letby’s appeal after claiming that very low C-Peptide readings are not unusual in neonates. They take issue with another group of academics on the defence team who claim that the insulin and C-Peptide readings in the Letby case should have been ignored because the test is not reliable. Shannon and Chase say that the other group’s claims are not only “demonstrably inaccurate” but are “inconsistent with the available evidence, science and established physiology”.

Letby’s lawyer, Mark McDonald, told Newsnight that he “fundamentally disagrees” with Shannon and Chase despite them being on a panel of experts who he described as “the best in the world” until this week. Neither theory stands much chance of persuading the Court of Appeal, but the fact that Shannon and Chase chose the day before the Thirlwall Report was released to make their headline-grabbing announcement suggests that all is not well on Team Letby.

For her part, Lady Thirlwall dismisses “suggestions from different quarters outside the Inquiry that the testing carried out was in some way defective”. Many of her recommendations, such as mandatory webcams above every hospital cot, are unlikely to pass the cost-benefit test, but while public inquiries tend to result in backward-looking and expensive regulation, her recommendation that any test that shows elevated insulin and low C-peptide levels should be “immediately acted upon” seems sensible. It is a tried and tested method of murder in hospitals, previously employed by Victorino Chua, Beverley Allitt and Colin Norris. If there is one lesson from the Countess of Chester tragedy it is that this red flag should never be overlooked.

In April 2016, another neonate – Baby L – had extremely high levels of insulin and very low levels of C-peptide. The laboratory again called the hospital and spoke to the duty biochemist who called the neonatal ward but, unable to speak to anybody, settled for updating the infant’s medical records with the test results. They went unnoticed by the doctor who was caring for Baby L at the time. (Known as “Dr A” in the original trial and as “Dr U” in the Thirlwall Inquiry, his identity was revealed as Dr Mark Deakin after his death in July. He was described as Letby’s “boyfriend” by the prosecution, although there is no reason to believe he was her accomplice.)

Did Letby's "boyfriend" really not notice the test results of high levels of insulin, I wonder, or did he turn a blind eye. Only he knew, and perhaps Letby.

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 17:16

Dolphin37 · 16/09/2026 17:01

The Thirlwall report accurately described her as an unpleasant liar

Basing that on one private text where she said "Dad was on the floor crying" while the mother doesn't recall him being literally on the floor is pretty weak sauce. It's like if she wrote "Dad was bawling his eyes out" when his eyes weren't literally out. When that's all that was found from such an exhaustive investigation, for Thirlwall to then declare that Letby was "repeatedly untruthful in her dealings with friends and colleagues", is a much bigger exaggeration than anything Letby said, in a context where unfair exaggerations are much less excusable.

Edited

No it’s not the same as it that analogy. She was outright lying about how he reacted to the death, describing him being on the floor and saying don’t take our baby. This was a lie and it was part of her general tendency to attention seek in the many many texts she sent to colleagues about the events which followed a similar pattern - how she was shocked, how upset the family was and how she was “just doing her job”.
She also falsified notes and omitted crucial details and couldn’t explain why she did this.

I suspect at some point soon there will be more resignation of these world leading experts and the whole shit show will crumble. But she sure as shit won’t be persuading the court of appeal for a third time that she should be acquitted or get a retrial. Even if Dr Shoo reckons he didn’t find any murders.

Dolphin37 · 16/09/2026 17:13

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 16:52

From the Spectator:

archive.ph/1OYok

Lady Thirlwall prefaced the launch of her report yesterday with the same message that she launched her public inquiry with two years ago. This was not about the guilt or innocence of Lucy Letby, she said. That matter has been decided in two trials and two appeals. The Thirlwall Inquiry is about how Letby was allowed to get away with it.

Despite this caveat, I would bet that most people’s motivation for reading her surprisingly gripping report is to seek out evidence of Letby’s guilt or innocence. There are plenty of nuggets of fresh information, but little for Letby’s band of supporters to cling onto. The three volumes of the Thirlwall Report are not the case for prosecution. They are not even half of the case for the prosecution. But if the report achieves nothing else, it must surely convince any fair-minded reader that there was a spate of unexpected, sudden deaths and collapses in the Countess of Chester Hospital under Letby’s watch between June 2015 and June 2016 that cannot be explained by infection or bacteria or under-staffing. There is a wealth of evidence showing that these incidents were considered alarming at the time by doctors and nurses alike. They were not retrospectively badged as suspicious in some bizarre attempt to frame an innocent nurse. Since the aim of the report is to learn lessons for the NHS, Thirlwall’s story starts and ends in the hospital. The Letbyist’s bête noire Dewi Evans, the paediatrician who found forensic evidence of foul play, never gets a mention since he was not involved until the year after the last murder. Instead, we have an account of mounting unease among medics at a neonatal unit who are seeing things that they have never seen before and which they cannot explain. This is not a story about the “how” but the “who”. And since the “how” was explained in court and the “who” is serving fifteen whole life sentences in HMP Bronzefield, the only question is why she wasn’t caught sooner.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but since no one saw Letby doing anything untoward and her modus operandi was still a mystery when she was taken off the ward in July 2016, one must be realistic about this. Even if she had been arrested in June 2015, when she had already killed three babies and attacked another, it is far from certain that she would have been convicted. Sending a few misleading text messages and being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not enough to convince a jury of guilt. Yes, there was some medical evidence too, but it didn’t point directly to Letby. But, as Lady Thirlwall argues, Letby could plausibly have been stopped in early August. The biggest missed opportunity was the failure to recognise clear evidence of insulin poisoning in a routine insulin test. High levels of insulin combined with low levels of C-peptide are considered in science and law to be unambiguous proof of the administration of exogenous insulin. Baby F, who was suffering from severe hypoglycemia, had a very high insulin reading and levels of C-peptide so low that they could not even be measured. The Senior Clinical Scientist at the laboratory that ran the tests phoned the hospital to alert staff to this, but the doctor at the Countess considered the possibility of deliberate insulin poisoning to be “so fantastical and unlikely” that she did not bother mentioning it to anybody. As Lady Thirlwall says, the results “should have led immediately to a call to the police”. Had it done so, Baby F could have been Letby’s last victim. Instead, the last child on the indictment was Baby Q. The victims are listed in alphabetical order.

Astonishingly, this happened twice. In April 2016, another neonate – Baby L – had extremely high levels of insulin and very low levels of C-peptide. The laboratory again called the hospital and spoke to the duty biochemist who called the neonatal ward but, unable to speak to anybody, settled for updating the infant’s medical records with the test results. They went unnoticed by the doctor who was caring for Baby L at the time. (Known as “Dr A” in the original trial and as “Dr U” in the Thirlwall Inquiry, his identity was revealed as Dr Mark Deakin after his death in July. He was described as Letby’s “boyfriend” by the prosecution, although there is no reason to believe he was her accomplice.)

Unaware of the insulin evidence, all the doctors had to go on was the coincidence of Letby’s presence. The death of Baby I in October 2015 raised their suspicions to new heights and they began to think the unthinkable. There had now been five highly unusual deaths in five months in a hospital which normally saw two or three deaths a year, typically of infants born with congenital abnormalities.

Since the start of the year, there had been seven deaths on the neonatal unit and Letby had been on shift for all of them. Only two involved congenital abnormalities. A shift chart showing Letby’s invariable presence at the scene of the possible crimes was drawn up but when it was e-mailed to the Head of Risk and Patient Safety by Dr Brearey as the Appendix to a ‘Thematic Review of Neonatal Mortality’ it went unseen. The recipient defended herself at the Thirwall Inquiry by explaining that she received more than 100 emails a day and didn’t scroll all the way down to the bottom of the document. She complained that “if Dr Brearey felt that he needed me to do something, he should have stipulated that very clearly in the email”, a response that Lady Thirlwall described as “unacceptable”.

The tipping point was reached in June 2016 when Letby was cot-side as two healthy triplets suddenly died within a day of each other. “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?”, she said while Baby P was being resuscitated, a comment that shocked the doctor she was talking to. Incredibly, even after this, several nurse managers resisted attempts to remove Letby from the unit – not to have her arrested or sacked, but to merely have her suspended from duty while an investigation could be undertaken. It is these managers who bear the brunt of Lady Thirlwall’s scorn while the doctors are largely treated sympathetically. “Acknowledgement of their errors and failings was characteristic of the consultant paediatricians”, she writes. “The doctors’ reflective and self-critical approach is in marked contrast to that of the managers to whom they turned for assistance.”

On Monday, two of the supposedly world-leading experts who have been recruited to come up with alternative interpretations of the evidence announced that they will no longer be working with the defence team. Helen Shannon, a chemical engineer, and Geoff Chase, a professor of bioengineering, became part of Letby’s appeal after claiming that very low C-Peptide readings are not unusual in neonates. They take issue with another group of academics on the defence team who claim that the insulin and C-Peptide readings in the Letby case should have been ignored because the test is not reliable. Shannon and Chase say that the other group’s claims are not only “demonstrably inaccurate” but are “inconsistent with the available evidence, science and established physiology”.

Letby’s lawyer, Mark McDonald, told Newsnight that he “fundamentally disagrees” with Shannon and Chase despite them being on a panel of experts who he described as “the best in the world” until this week. Neither theory stands much chance of persuading the Court of Appeal, but the fact that Shannon and Chase chose the day before the Thirlwall Report was released to make their headline-grabbing announcement suggests that all is not well on Team Letby.

For her part, Lady Thirlwall dismisses “suggestions from different quarters outside the Inquiry that the testing carried out was in some way defective”. Many of her recommendations, such as mandatory webcams above every hospital cot, are unlikely to pass the cost-benefit test, but while public inquiries tend to result in backward-looking and expensive regulation, her recommendation that any test that shows elevated insulin and low C-peptide levels should be “immediately acted upon” seems sensible. It is a tried and tested method of murder in hospitals, previously employed by Victorino Chua, Beverley Allitt and Colin Norris. If there is one lesson from the Countess of Chester tragedy it is that this red flag should never be overlooked.

High levels of insulin combined with low levels of C-peptide are considered in science and law to be unambiguous proof of the administration of exogenous insulin

Then why wasn't Letby (or someone else) charged with attempting to poison Child Y, who had higher insulin than Child F and Child L?

Dolphin37 · 16/09/2026 17:01

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 14:27

It’s really quite baffling how people think she was a scapegoat when those who raised concerns were the ones threatened with the sack, management protected her and ignored all complaints until they genuinely couldn’t do so anymore. And she had no record whatsoever of having blown the whistle on anything that would implicate those who raised concerns about her. In fact she herself was a failure with her medicine overdose to a baby that she complained about being reprimanded for.

The Thirlwall report accurately described her as an unpleasant liar who was chummy with management. The whole innocent hardworking nurse getting the blame stuff is just invented bullshit. She is a genuinely awful person.

The Thirlwall report accurately described her as an unpleasant liar

Basing that on one private text where she said "Dad was on the floor crying" while the mother doesn't recall him being literally on the floor is pretty weak sauce. It's like if she wrote "Dad was bawling his eyes out" when his eyes weren't literally out. When that's all that was found from such an exhaustive investigation, for Thirlwall to then declare that Letby was "repeatedly untruthful in her dealings with friends and colleagues", is a much bigger exaggeration than anything Letby said, in a context where unfair exaggerations are much less excusable.

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 16:52

From the Spectator:

archive.ph/1OYok

Lady Thirlwall prefaced the launch of her report yesterday with the same message that she launched her public inquiry with two years ago. This was not about the guilt or innocence of Lucy Letby, she said. That matter has been decided in two trials and two appeals. The Thirlwall Inquiry is about how Letby was allowed to get away with it.

Despite this caveat, I would bet that most people’s motivation for reading her surprisingly gripping report is to seek out evidence of Letby’s guilt or innocence. There are plenty of nuggets of fresh information, but little for Letby’s band of supporters to cling onto. The three volumes of the Thirlwall Report are not the case for prosecution. They are not even half of the case for the prosecution. But if the report achieves nothing else, it must surely convince any fair-minded reader that there was a spate of unexpected, sudden deaths and collapses in the Countess of Chester Hospital under Letby’s watch between June 2015 and June 2016 that cannot be explained by infection or bacteria or under-staffing. There is a wealth of evidence showing that these incidents were considered alarming at the time by doctors and nurses alike. They were not retrospectively badged as suspicious in some bizarre attempt to frame an innocent nurse. Since the aim of the report is to learn lessons for the NHS, Thirlwall’s story starts and ends in the hospital. The Letbyist’s bête noire Dewi Evans, the paediatrician who found forensic evidence of foul play, never gets a mention since he was not involved until the year after the last murder. Instead, we have an account of mounting unease among medics at a neonatal unit who are seeing things that they have never seen before and which they cannot explain. This is not a story about the “how” but the “who”. And since the “how” was explained in court and the “who” is serving fifteen whole life sentences in HMP Bronzefield, the only question is why she wasn’t caught sooner.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but since no one saw Letby doing anything untoward and her modus operandi was still a mystery when she was taken off the ward in July 2016, one must be realistic about this. Even if she had been arrested in June 2015, when she had already killed three babies and attacked another, it is far from certain that she would have been convicted. Sending a few misleading text messages and being in the wrong place at the wrong time is not enough to convince a jury of guilt. Yes, there was some medical evidence too, but it didn’t point directly to Letby. But, as Lady Thirlwall argues, Letby could plausibly have been stopped in early August. The biggest missed opportunity was the failure to recognise clear evidence of insulin poisoning in a routine insulin test. High levels of insulin combined with low levels of C-peptide are considered in science and law to be unambiguous proof of the administration of exogenous insulin. Baby F, who was suffering from severe hypoglycemia, had a very high insulin reading and levels of C-peptide so low that they could not even be measured. The Senior Clinical Scientist at the laboratory that ran the tests phoned the hospital to alert staff to this, but the doctor at the Countess considered the possibility of deliberate insulin poisoning to be “so fantastical and unlikely” that she did not bother mentioning it to anybody. As Lady Thirlwall says, the results “should have led immediately to a call to the police”. Had it done so, Baby F could have been Letby’s last victim. Instead, the last child on the indictment was Baby Q. The victims are listed in alphabetical order.

Astonishingly, this happened twice. In April 2016, another neonate – Baby L – had extremely high levels of insulin and very low levels of C-peptide. The laboratory again called the hospital and spoke to the duty biochemist who called the neonatal ward but, unable to speak to anybody, settled for updating the infant’s medical records with the test results. They went unnoticed by the doctor who was caring for Baby L at the time. (Known as “Dr A” in the original trial and as “Dr U” in the Thirlwall Inquiry, his identity was revealed as Dr Mark Deakin after his death in July. He was described as Letby’s “boyfriend” by the prosecution, although there is no reason to believe he was her accomplice.)

Unaware of the insulin evidence, all the doctors had to go on was the coincidence of Letby’s presence. The death of Baby I in October 2015 raised their suspicions to new heights and they began to think the unthinkable. There had now been five highly unusual deaths in five months in a hospital which normally saw two or three deaths a year, typically of infants born with congenital abnormalities.

Since the start of the year, there had been seven deaths on the neonatal unit and Letby had been on shift for all of them. Only two involved congenital abnormalities. A shift chart showing Letby’s invariable presence at the scene of the possible crimes was drawn up but when it was e-mailed to the Head of Risk and Patient Safety by Dr Brearey as the Appendix to a ‘Thematic Review of Neonatal Mortality’ it went unseen. The recipient defended herself at the Thirwall Inquiry by explaining that she received more than 100 emails a day and didn’t scroll all the way down to the bottom of the document. She complained that “if Dr Brearey felt that he needed me to do something, he should have stipulated that very clearly in the email”, a response that Lady Thirlwall described as “unacceptable”.

The tipping point was reached in June 2016 when Letby was cot-side as two healthy triplets suddenly died within a day of each other. “He’s not leaving here alive, is he?”, she said while Baby P was being resuscitated, a comment that shocked the doctor she was talking to. Incredibly, even after this, several nurse managers resisted attempts to remove Letby from the unit – not to have her arrested or sacked, but to merely have her suspended from duty while an investigation could be undertaken. It is these managers who bear the brunt of Lady Thirlwall’s scorn while the doctors are largely treated sympathetically. “Acknowledgement of their errors and failings was characteristic of the consultant paediatricians”, she writes. “The doctors’ reflective and self-critical approach is in marked contrast to that of the managers to whom they turned for assistance.”

On Monday, two of the supposedly world-leading experts who have been recruited to come up with alternative interpretations of the evidence announced that they will no longer be working with the defence team. Helen Shannon, a chemical engineer, and Geoff Chase, a professor of bioengineering, became part of Letby’s appeal after claiming that very low C-Peptide readings are not unusual in neonates. They take issue with another group of academics on the defence team who claim that the insulin and C-Peptide readings in the Letby case should have been ignored because the test is not reliable. Shannon and Chase say that the other group’s claims are not only “demonstrably inaccurate” but are “inconsistent with the available evidence, science and established physiology”.

Letby’s lawyer, Mark McDonald, told Newsnight that he “fundamentally disagrees” with Shannon and Chase despite them being on a panel of experts who he described as “the best in the world” until this week. Neither theory stands much chance of persuading the Court of Appeal, but the fact that Shannon and Chase chose the day before the Thirlwall Report was released to make their headline-grabbing announcement suggests that all is not well on Team Letby.

For her part, Lady Thirlwall dismisses “suggestions from different quarters outside the Inquiry that the testing carried out was in some way defective”. Many of her recommendations, such as mandatory webcams above every hospital cot, are unlikely to pass the cost-benefit test, but while public inquiries tend to result in backward-looking and expensive regulation, her recommendation that any test that shows elevated insulin and low C-peptide levels should be “immediately acted upon” seems sensible. It is a tried and tested method of murder in hospitals, previously employed by Victorino Chua, Beverley Allitt and Colin Norris. If there is one lesson from the Countess of Chester tragedy it is that this red flag should never be overlooked.

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 16:51

Oftenaddled · 16/09/2026 15:36

I don't think many people believe she was a scapegoat in that doctors deliberately targeted her, knowing she was innocent. What people tend to suggest is that her presence at so many deaths became a distraction from looking beyond her at the problems in the unit; that she became a scapegoat in the sense of bearing blame for something she wasn't responsible for.

The Thirlwall report, like the inquiry, shows a similar effect. Problems with the unit are ignored or downplayed because it is possible to blame Lucy Letby. That was pretty much baked into its terms and conditions. A handful of incidents, not all unusual or even directly connected to her, are thrown in to add some character assassination. And she is accused of lying where the prosecution needs her to be lying for their case against her to work - all circular.

That's why there is nothing new - apart from the recommendations - to discuss from the Thirlwall report. It's mostly just a rehash of the prosecution case, which Thirlwall regards as fact as her starting point.

Edited

I admire your optimism but the argument is rubbish from beginning to end. Nobody from management was particularly concerned by the deaths. This came from the doctors on the ward who repeatedly described this pattern as extremely unusual. On Casualty, unexpected and unexplained deaths are plenty. Not so much in real life. Why would these doctors be so keen to paint these deaths as murders when absolutely nobody was labelling them as such? There is simply no reason for this whatsoever. It’s sad that you and so many others are so invested in defending a murderer of premature babies but I guess everyone gets their kicks in different ways. It’s amazing the reaches you have to engage in to make your story vaguely plausible.

I would also ask, do you also believe that Ben Geen, another killer nurse that Mark McDonald blusters about being wrongfully convicted, is innocent? The dude who was found with a syringe full of the drug used to kill people on him? Because MM is just as clear that he also didn’t do it, is a scapegoat etc.

Oftenaddled · 16/09/2026 15:36

Glowingup · 16/09/2026 14:27

It’s really quite baffling how people think she was a scapegoat when those who raised concerns were the ones threatened with the sack, management protected her and ignored all complaints until they genuinely couldn’t do so anymore. And she had no record whatsoever of having blown the whistle on anything that would implicate those who raised concerns about her. In fact she herself was a failure with her medicine overdose to a baby that she complained about being reprimanded for.

The Thirlwall report accurately described her as an unpleasant liar who was chummy with management. The whole innocent hardworking nurse getting the blame stuff is just invented bullshit. She is a genuinely awful person.

I don't think many people believe she was a scapegoat in that doctors deliberately targeted her, knowing she was innocent. What people tend to suggest is that her presence at so many deaths became a distraction from looking beyond her at the problems in the unit; that she became a scapegoat in the sense of bearing blame for something she wasn't responsible for.

The Thirlwall report, like the inquiry, shows a similar effect. Problems with the unit are ignored or downplayed because it is possible to blame Lucy Letby. That was pretty much baked into its terms and conditions. A handful of incidents, not all unusual or even directly connected to her, are thrown in to add some character assassination. And she is accused of lying where the prosecution needs her to be lying for their case against her to work - all circular.

That's why there is nothing new - apart from the recommendations - to discuss from the Thirlwall report. It's mostly just a rehash of the prosecution case, which Thirlwall regards as fact as her starting point.

OP posts:
Glowingup · 16/09/2026 14:27

It’s really quite baffling how people think she was a scapegoat when those who raised concerns were the ones threatened with the sack, management protected her and ignored all complaints until they genuinely couldn’t do so anymore. And she had no record whatsoever of having blown the whistle on anything that would implicate those who raised concerns about her. In fact she herself was a failure with her medicine overdose to a baby that she complained about being reprimanded for.

The Thirlwall report accurately described her as an unpleasant liar who was chummy with management. The whole innocent hardworking nurse getting the blame stuff is just invented bullshit. She is a genuinely awful person.

Frequency · 16/09/2026 13:47

CheeseNPickle3 · 16/09/2026 10:24

Apart from the expense (and there's always other ways to spend money in the NHS) I think cameras could be a good idea so parents who have other children to look after would be able to still see their baby in the NICU remotely as well as visit in person. Potentially fewer people around the babies could cut down on the possibility of infection spreading too - and just more space without extra people there. Depending on who has access to the recordings, it could also be useful to check the times when cares/medication were done if the notes are being done retrospectively. Whether it's any use for detecting wrongdoing is another thing.

I think whistleblowers in general should be protected. It's always going to be a judgement call when to suspect foul play.

Edited

It's a nice idea, but it would be a nightmare to secure. If it happens, I imagine the camera will be on a local network and inaccessible from outside.

FrippEnos · 16/09/2026 10:57

Daygloboo · 16/09/2026 07:27

Well, by saying ' supporters' I was actually using the exact word they used on the BBC six o'clock news.

The issue with only putting this forward as having sides ignores that many on here have said that they don't know if letby is guilty or innocent.

Its that we have no confidence that the conviction is sound.

CheeseNPickle3 · 16/09/2026 10:24

Apart from the expense (and there's always other ways to spend money in the NHS) I think cameras could be a good idea so parents who have other children to look after would be able to still see their baby in the NICU remotely as well as visit in person. Potentially fewer people around the babies could cut down on the possibility of infection spreading too - and just more space without extra people there. Depending on who has access to the recordings, it could also be useful to check the times when cares/medication were done if the notes are being done retrospectively. Whether it's any use for detecting wrongdoing is another thing.

I think whistleblowers in general should be protected. It's always going to be a judgement call when to suspect foul play.

Daygloboo · 16/09/2026 07:27

EasternStandard · 16/09/2026 06:22

Supporters seems odd as a way to view this. If two of the defence team have acted as they have it’s because they are concerned about the safeness of the conviction.

They haven’t become LL ‘supporters’. It’s a legal issue that is being looked at rn.

Well, by saying ' supporters' I was actually using the exact word they used on the BBC six o'clock news.

EasternStandard · 16/09/2026 06:25

Oftenaddled · 15/09/2026 23:34

Mixed feelings about Thirlwall. Glad to see the recommendation on multidisciplinary panels. Why do they include four managers?! I go back and forth on CCTV or cotcams. Will they really capture everything? I wonder what nurses think of them.

Thirlwall conclusions are pretty much what you would conclude if you thought Lucy Letby was guilty: doctors were right, nurses and managers were wrong, people should have responded urgently after seven deaths in four months. Unit dysfunctional, management failings, communications awful. Doesn't touch on new expert evidence, as you'd expect. Lots of details is contest. Nothing new if you have been following the Inquiry. Certainly no new proofs or indicators of guilt.

The best perspective I've seen on it has been from the Guardian:

>So during two years and £18m spent on so much legal inquiry, the question has not been answered, nor was it allowed to be asked: how and why did Cheshire constabulary and the Crown Prosecution Service, and the doctors they recruited as expert witnesses, come to so wholly different a conclusion about the causes of death, from all the experts that had looked at the same medical evidence before?

If the inquiry can't answer that question, how is it expecting future experts to spot future Letbys? A failure of conviction that it never asked this question at all.

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2026/sep/15/thirlwall-inquiry-left-biggest-questions-lucy-letby-case-unanswered

Yes it was a very slam dunk outcome. It wholey assumes guilt and all recommendations come from that. I suppose it’s the court info they had. Although maybe the Guardian raises a good point there.,

EasternStandard · 16/09/2026 06:22

Daygloboo · 16/09/2026 00:38

The main arguments that her supporters seem to put forward revolve around her being under stress and acting oddly because of that. For me, the one thing that seems genuinely suspicious above everything else is the notes. I am not convinced that you would take loads of notes home by accident in your pocket, then stash them under your bed and dont ever get rid of them.... even though you've got a shredder. It just doesnt make sense. Also there was the fact of her having that doctor ' boyfriend' . Didnt she get attention from him whenever there was drama. That would be a motive.

Supporters seems odd as a way to view this. If two of the defence team have acted as they have it’s because they are concerned about the safeness of the conviction.

They haven’t become LL ‘supporters’. It’s a legal issue that is being looked at rn.

kkloo · 16/09/2026 02:48

New documentary on Channel 5 on Mon 21st of September at 10pm.

Lucy Letby: Scapegoat?

A new investigation by the Sun in partnership with 5 puts the prosecution's case against the former neonatal nurse under the microscope like never before. Shocking, fresh revelations uncover a hospital in crisis and a system in freefall and asks whether those institutional failures were misinterpreted as murder. Through new testimony, expert analysis and an anonymous insider, investigative journalist Rob Pattinson examines whether important alternative explanations were overlooked during and explores the possibility that the focus on one individual may have obscured wider problems within the hospital