To think ‘you’re entitled to a child free life not a child free world’ is an excuse not to parent?

@GreenMeeple "When I grew up here many restaurants and pubs with gardens also had some sort of play equipment. Now it's almost impossible to find."

It's mostly because of insurance. The UK has adopted the suing culture of the US and hospitality venues have understandably become extremely nervous about it. It only takes little Johnny to scrape his knee, or even wander out of the play area and get run over, for a million pound + law suit to be filed. Far too many parents these days expect their kids to be supervised by anyone except them.

My son was a challenging autistic toddler and this is how we parented. Obviously if they kick off in a supermarket it’s a bit different in terms of management. No one is there for an enjoyable trip out.

by three I was able to sit in a restaurant - it was just expected and we were taken out if we didn’t sit in our seats.
its not rocket science. If your kid isn’t able to sit for a meal in a restaurant without a large degree of adult facilitation (keeping them busy/distracted/entertained/taking them out for a run about between courses etc) they probably aren’t ready for that yet.

Near where we have booked to go on holiday, there is a restaurant that talks about how “super dog friendly” it is, but then gives a list of stipulations about children eating there - it only allows older children / “young adults” anyway - including “used to ordering from the main menu”. If it’s the only menu, what else would they order from?

Just seems a weird swing towards inclusion of members of another species - with no stipulations about dog behaviour- and against members of our own.

Put me right off even though my teenagers would be fine and well behaved!

I get that an environment free of little kids is totally fine - say “this is a 12 + restaurant, and please note there’s only one menu” - but idk I found the “super dog friendly” a really weird juxtaposition with it.

OP - you have it right. Some parents need to understand that not everyone wants to be hassled by their badly behaved offspring.

It’s not always easy - but parents need to parent. 🙄

I think the UK culture is just more intolerant nowadays of everyone and everything.

Some European countries are, well just easier.

I don’t think the phrase is wrong as such - I think the phrase is true!

But I think people misapply it, as in your example.

There’s “a child free world” which no one is entitled to, and “a world where children aren’t being allowed to negatively impact other people in avoidable ways” which is a whole other thing and very reasonable to expect!

I agree with you but on the flip side - we were in a restaurant once and a couple came in. The man saw us and complained to the staff that he didn't want to eat in a restaurant with kids in it, turned on his heal and left. It was lunch time and my children were literally sitting at a table eating, minding their own buisness. Both primary age, so not toddlers or babies prone to screaming and perfectly capable of sitting through a meal. Some people have zero tolerance for anyone under 25. The manager couldn't have been more lovely about it.

I don’t think this is how most people would behave or that people commenting in anyway reflect normal people with half a brain.

First of all, I’ve never seen videos like this or heard this phrase or seen people respond this way. I think you must be a bit in an echo chamber.

Secondly, people posting these things are doing it to get a response and they’re going to be getting it because that’s how the algorithms work.

It’s a bit like my hare brained friend who homeschools (“homeschools”) by mostly going on one luxury holiday in term time after another. She gets either rage bait responses to her off on a yacht again or a million homeschool families who think it’s totally normal to be drinking tequila shots on a yacht instead of actually educating your children (but hey, the airfares were cheaper!). Whereas most normal people just think she’s bonkers and wonder at her poor spelling and punctuation for someone meant to be home educating. 😂 No one thinks it’s normal except the people the algorithm sends her way. I think it is the same here.

I definitely don’t experience this out in the real world at all.

Whist I agree that children shouldn't be too loud and disruptive in public spaces i'm also always surprised about how child unfriendly the UK has become (or at least around my parts). When I grew up here many restaurants and pubs with gardens also had some sort of play equipment. Now it's almost impossible to find.

When I visit relatives in Europe there are tiny shopping trolleys for kids in supermarkets, play corners in shops and cafes, swimming pools have toys and armbands you can borrow, I went to a pet store that had a duplo corner. Children seem to be a much more accepted part of everyday life. Here kids need to be much more contained in their child oriented spaces; home, school, nursery, softplay, park and ok to be seen but not heard almost everywhere else.

Again I don't think it's okay to just let your kids be disruptive. But there are very few places here that give you the opportunity for kids to learn but still be kids. Like, go and blow off some energy on that play equipment and then come back and sit quietly whilst we eat dinner.

The internet is full of stories that make you think the world is a much worse place than it is in reality.

Not looking at TikTok videos is a simple and fine way to improve your day to day life and to see the real world (populated largely by decent folk), not one concocted by shysters to make people rage.

People who change a dirty nappy indoors where food is being served are fucking scumbags. Disgusting behaviour.

I think there are def levels of awareness on both sides.
For example if I go to see a kids film or a to child friendly cafe then I should expect a reasonable amount of shouting/crying/playing/etc.
If its a more adult venue then people should be prepared to remove their kid if they are causing a disturbance.

I agree with this and have heard so many excuses. I have a DS who is 6 and diagnosed with ASD so I know how tough it can be to parent, but we do our best to ensure any issues with behaviour are managed and do not affect others. I think society as a whole are more selfish and I see just as many adults with devices blaring or being inconsiderate as I do children.

'As is putting toddlers in the food part of food trolleys that other people then have to use'
I used to slip my granddaughter's shoes off. But now with self scan people lift their bags off the floor and into the trolley. Some put them on the floor of the bus, at the bus stop, the taxi rank etc, so a child being loaded out of a car and into a trolley is actually cleaner.
I don't think that every child can be in a restaurant at 8, many are getting tired and are over hungry. I've only been bothered on flights by adults.

It almost seems harsh on them. To take them on a flight when they are very small.

@Helpboat I feel nothing but sympathy for babies screaming on planes - they're in agony and they can't help it, therefore it doesn't annoy the way uncorrected bad behaviour from older children does if that makes sense?

Can you imagine a flight with a screaming child/baby and over drunk people.
Gosh.

I do wish they’d offer child free flights. It would come at a cost no doubt. It would be interesting to see how many would take it.

Realistically I think this would exist if there were enough demand for it. It comes up often enough.

The main factors when people choose their travel are the date of the flight, as some travel has to be done at certain times, and price. Even people who might prefer a childfree flight won't be able to use one if it doesn't fit their dates. And then lots of others will go with whatever's cheapest, in some cases because they can't afford to go otherwise.

@Lmnop22i disagree because it’s never acceptable to let your child run around, scream or other poor behaviour in restaurants. As a restaurant manager you assume your customers will be fully aware that when they bring children into your establishment they are signing up to these basic decencies and will take mitigations if their child becomes unsettled - it’s what parents did in the past automatically, staff didn’t have to ask them to leave!

well behaved children and parents who are responsible shouldn’t have to be banned from restaurants due to the irresponsible ones

I agree, it’s either behave or we go home. No shouting in public places we can have a fun and animated conversation for sure but no screaming and shouting. Kids learn from creating regular habits you just have to keep reminding them. Ours was difficult but we perceived and now he’s great in restaurants.

The only exception being planes. If they cry due to their ears hurting etc there’s nothing you can do. I have had a woman glare at me and I asked if he she was ok?

Don’t agree with running on a plane or hitting chairs etc go for regular walks to toilet etc but otherwise kids will be a bit loud and may cry. That’s where you’re not entitled to a child free world.

I do wish they’d offer child free flights. It would come at a cost no doubt. It would be interesting to see how many would take it.

I still remember staying in a very expensive child friendly resort with my then baby and enjoying the attached beach. He was crying and an elderly German couple started showing their disapproval. I pointed to the hotel next door and advised them it was a child free one. I do wonder why they didn’t stay there instead.

Yeah, it depends.

Sometimes it is said as an excuse not to parent. Other times it's said in response to someone who thinks they're entitled not to be exposed to children in public places. Planes are a common favourite.

I always go back to a holiday story of mind when I read threads like this. In a 5 star hotel abroad. Toddler says he needs the toilet at which point the dad whips a potty out for him to use in the middle of the restaurant instead of walking 10 metres to the actual toilet.🤮

I work at the golden arches and we have kids that come in with their parents and are perfectly behaved

They sit at the table,parents engaging with them,eat and help clean up before leaving

And then we have the changing nappies at the table,parents gawping at their phones while their children are running around,kids doing cartwheels up and down the tables,kids screaming,kids fighting over the ipads,kids running in and out (we are next to a busy road) and loads more naughty behaviour

I have a lot of sympathy for the 'im shattered,its been a long day and they've been little sods' parents-ive been there many times myself

It's the parents who expect me to nanny their child and get pissed off because I cant and the ones who blame me when their child cartwheels and ends up scalded when they hit someone holding a fresh coffee that I dont have any sympathy for (they are the most bloody vocal when it goes tits up)

Then the kids grow up and we have the teenagers who think they can do anything they like which I deal with every single shift

When we were children we all knew how to behave in public. Not because we were angels but because we were expected to. My nieces and nephews generation less so. New ideas about freedom of expression creep and they were not expected to behave outside of the home. So sometimes didn’t.
Nobody told them no. Until Grandad did. Then they realised on one occasion it wasn’t okay ( what they were doing) and behaved. Beautifully.

You do need to tell children what is expected.

And as for parents. If they don’t know by the time they are one themselves there is little hope.
Changing a nappy on a food table is grotesque.
As is putting toddlers in the food part of food trolleys that other people then have to use. Who knows what they have trampled in.
Glad to see the buffet salad bar is no longer a thing .I watched a dad oblivious to what he was doing. Feeding his daughter with the serving spoon then putting it back in the salad bar. Nice.

But restaurants shouldn’t accept guests and take order from and serve them when they have kids only to ask them to go outside or take their food home. You either accept children into your restaurant or you don’t and it’s unfair to change your mind halfway through someone’s experience.

@Lmnop22 You can absolutely accept children into a restaurant, it does NOT mean you have to accept poor behaviour from them or their parents.

There's no way of telling which kids will behave, of course. The kids don't even know at that point if they plan to behave 😂

ETA - children doing continued behaviours such as shrieking, banging things on the table shouting etc is not "kids being kids" . It's parents-not-parenting. No one is saying a child who excitedly lets out a loud noise has broken some cardinal sin. Most people accept that... it's when the parents allow that shriek to happen again and again throughout a meal