Should teachers be allowed to speak to parents as they are spoken to?

I taught primary, which i understand is a different kettle of fish to secondary . I struggle to blame the kuds when it is obviously a parenting issue. No equipment, wrong clothing/uniform, being late, not practised their spellings/reading is NOT child's issue and I HATE that schools punish the child, ie children are excluded from a lovely activity because they didn't 'do' something that was outside if their control.

As a foster carer, at times, we have had lots of input with secondary schools and I do believe I am a fair person however there have been times when a selection of secondary teachers really should not have been teaching and actually made me embarrassed that some teachers behaved liked that. Thankfully we have also had staff who have gone way above and beyond in helping our kids and made them a success.
I know secondary kids should have some independent skills to behave, do their work etc but I recognise that some kids won't have those skills because no one at home has been interested and its 100% not encouraged by parents.

Teacher of over 25 years. Grew up in a very low income working class home without any financial support, but lots of emotional support.

I can see what the OP is saying. I have been sworn at multiple times, threatened and (once) physically attacked by parents. Each of these parents has been what I can only describe as the 'non-working class'.

We have a huge number of parents who have no aspirations for their child as they (quote) "Get above themselves."
These parents are the issue.
I shall give a couple of recent examples.

1. Parent came in to 'have a go' because their child wanted them to come to parents evening. Their absolutely lovely daughter has really talent and wanted their dad to see their writing. They are the 6th child. I was told, "I've had 5 kids go through here. Never had to come in before. What makes you think you should tell her (daughter) to see if I can come and see her work?"

2. SEND child that had worked extremely hard in maths, and I had worked out how to properly support thrm, passed. Parents came in shouting in my face that he wasn't supposed to pass. This boy had major issues with reading and writing but with adequate support could understand maths.

I could go on.
This is the problem schools are facing. The majority of the children want to learn, but that aspiration is drained from them. I used to work in a very deprived working class area (near to where I grew up). Parents were so supportive as they wanted their children to do well. This is still the case with most working class parents. That's why I call these parents 'non-working class'.

I really don't think you should be a teacher, you sound like you hate it. Get a different job or a better attitude.

You're being aggressive and attacking people so of course you are getting some aggression back. Hopefully you are not really a teacher because there is nothing constructive about posting like this.

How did we get here? Why are we at each others throats? What would make a genuine difference?

What would make a genuine difference would be not trotting out the type of tired stereotypes full of negative assumptions in the OP.

Do you mean can we treat parents the way the children treat us? Yeeeeah... Think that's classed as GBH, lol.

This week I have been scratched, punched, would have had a chair thrown at me if it wasn't for the fact that I have mastered ninja skills that mean I can snatch chairs just as they leave children's hands and place them down. I spent the first week of the Easter holidays in agony after I ended up going flying and landing on my back.

Seriously .... We don't get paid enough for this shit!

Everybody is like this to everybody. At least possibly nice when things go their way but so wound up that if anything goes even slightly wrong the spring snaps and so do they. It’s those stupid little boxes we’re all looking at right now to read mn, we’ve fried our brains, melted our concentration, stopped conversing and so talking things out, we’ve lost patience. It’s not a teacher thing, it’s a human/ screens/ modern society thing

Her reference point is your post. She’s quoting back what you actually said.

Its interesting that you claim to know "what it's really about".
When you really don't know that much.
"The kids who are scared and disruptive and disengaged now" are the ones that the teachers, TAs, pastoral support et al. are the ones spending their own money to bring in food, clothes equipment and equally importantly spending time with these children.
Most of them have not been 'heard' before.

The ones that I and many others had issues with were the middle class children that could do no wrong, the parents where/are managers in companies (often their own), yet many of them seem to forget basic civillty when talking at teachers. Threatening them with complaints to SLT and destroying their career, not forgetting the threats of physical abuse and sometimes attual assault.

But at least you would think that SLT would have the teacher's back with this, but no more often than not they will placate the parent until the parent finally makes threats towards the SLT.

@ProudCat

You’re at the stage where you need to consider whether teaching is the right career for you.

It’s sad but it does have a shelf life.

As a former teacher myself I can see the signs that perhaps you need to pass the baton on for others to take up.

I’m not saying what you’re saying is untrue but the way you are saying it (and speaking to others) is showing a lack of control and of respect which is very important in the profession.

It may be time to call it a day.

The problem, my dear OP is... oh, I can't be bothered. You won't listen to me anyway.

I work in primary and I can tell you, I'm despairing at things from both sides at the moment. Kids who lack respect and who spoil the school experience for others with parents attached who see no problem with this.... but also teachers who profess to understand the needs of various children in one breath but have no qualms about brushing various kids off and effectively telling them to "grow up and stop causing problems" in another. I've recently entered the phase where I'm seeing things from a parent's point of view too and it has been really eye opening.

One of the things that has me struggling for example is the obsession with attendance. There are parents that can't be bothered to get their kids to school but also there's an unhealthy obsession with top attendance nunebers from the side of the school. I understand the pressures come from above and it's not individual teachers (and I'm not management so I can't 100% say what I would do with those pressures if I was) but the way some places deal with it has never sat well with me.

Unfortunately, being the easiest point of contact as staff, we're going to get the thick of the complaints. We're found guilty of stuff just by association. You can't be seen to disagree with policy so, to parents, staff are complicit with anything and everything (and the daft initiatives that come with trying to improve things like attendance when you're completely unable to change anything that would have a meaningful impact in a positive way). It doesn't make for the most comfortable relationship and certainly, as a parent now, I feel more like my child is a number rather than a child. Even having said this, I would rather my child be at the particular school we've chosen than anywhere else so it really feels like it's just trying to make the best of a bad situation at the moment. I think that's enough to make a lot of people (not just the "lazy" ones you talk about who hated school when it was their turn) think, "well, what's the point?". Thing is, I would look to make up for what I feel my child has missed out on being at school in this modern age but others will just check out entirely.

I think the key to most of the issues is to just dump a whole load of the current stuff we have to do at school in favour of community engagement. I think the sense of "community" is dying out and that's why no one gives a crap any more.

And don’t forget that the handwritten paper forms are likely to be partly illegible - loads of room for errors which could mean the school having incorrect phone numbers, email addresses etc on the system.
With electronic forms there are far fewer errors. It’s just not practical to go back to paper forms.
However many schools will allow paper forms in certain circumstances if it’s clear the parent has no digital access.

Youre not wrong.
anything customer facing is dire and short of staff, Vets, GP, Pharmacists, retail workers you name it.

Provide copies = take clear photo on your phone and save as an img or pdf.

Complete a Google form = no finding an envelope, going to the post office or finding a post box, no paying to post a form with no guarantee it'll get there, just typing in your name, email, phone number, address and the name and date of birth of your kid.

An online form can be translated automatically, enlarged or read out loud for somebody with a different first language, literacy issues (although name, address and date of birth are normally the things that the overwhelming majority are able to manage) or unable to see a paper form clearly enough to fill it in and complete all the other stages of posting it or travelling several miles to hand it in at the office.

And the reason why the person handling the admissions applications is 'anonymous'? Because they are fed up to the back teeth of applicants lying about what has been said to them on the phone, having people turn up at Reception and lie about what they've apparently said, threaten them and/or track them down at their home address to chuck paint stripper over their front door or loiter around the school gates or staff car park at 6.40am (or 5pm in winter) waiting for them - and then to chase them down the street demanding to know why their child hasn't been given a place yet.

When somebody has been told that unless they give that child a place over and above everybody else 'I'll fuck you right up, bitch' and gone on to handle the application correctly and professionally, it's nothing to do with asking for a couple of attachments that can be sent either as an attachment or uploaded from the phone that's already being used to complete the application that they've then gone on to do the same to teaching staff.

I can’t speak for your school but the middle class parents are the ones with the power to, not the stereotypes you describe.
yeah Kelly off the estate might eff and Jeff about what she’s going do but she’s the one likely to be terrified of authority because she’s 99% more likely to get children’s services intervention than the nastiest passive aggressive MC mother.
and the MC is far more likely to get her kid moved to another class or on whatever special scheme is going.
because she’s knows how to get her own way.

why are we all pretending it’s the fag smoking flags that the OP describes who are the only problem?

I do my best to work with my kids teachers. The ridiculous 0 tolerance system in their schools make it difficult. The notion that working class kids needs a rod of iron our they will go feral has made secondary schools bloody awful for staff, pupils and kids.

I can’t wait for my last one to be finished.

but I thank the lord for good, dedicated teachers and they deserve as much respect as anyone doing their job well

Reading your post, I'm reminded of the Francis Review in the NHS and the concept that if you are constantly spoken to disrespectfully, you lose your ability to have compassion.

The problem with your post is that the majority of people on mumsnet probably aren't sitting at home on universal credit and living on chicken nuggets (as you phrased it). We're the people who deal with the teachers who think that about us, while also having to remain polite and respectful to get the best for our children.

We do need an urgent solution to protect teachers. It's not remotely OK for you to be sworn at and schools need to be able to set their rules and stick to them, making reasonable adjustments for disability but not responding to every parent demand. However, partnership can only come from mutual respect.

Yep some children fail because of the parents not the teachers

Our youngster’s head bans rude and aggressive parents from the school grounds because he has a responsibility to his teachers as well as his students. And expels. God it’s refreshing.

it’s an excellent school

Our son is thriving and prefers being there than home I think! The head has said “if I had 180 babydaisys my life would be easy”

I have only had to contact the school once in nearly 4 years about a slight misunderstanding.

It’s just a standard mixed comprehensive- but not a sniff of disruption in lessons, if it does happen pupils are removed, parents are not allowed to kick off, they get banned from all school events including sports day.

Support teachers, let them teach, you will get a consort of pupils engaged in education with ambition.

Yes teachers should be able to be more honest without resorting to vile language and behaviour. But blunt honestly directly given should be the normal. No parent should be shielded from the truth.

My mum taught primary from the 1970s to the 2000s.

She said when she started, if little Jonny got told off, he'd try his best not to let his parents find out or he'd get another bollocking at home.

Towards the end, if little Jonny got told off, the parents would be in moaning on his behalf. "Why did Jonny get his name on the board? It wasn't him talking it was Freddy".

I genuinely think most parents are unaware of how teachers are judged every moment of every fucking day. By everyone. Management, parents, children. You can see it in these comments.

I mean, parents are hostile towards teachers because of a complicated admissions process according to a pp. Surely parents have enough brain cells to realise that’s not within the remit of a teaching job?! Extraordinary.

I also think most parents are also unaware of the verbal and physical violence teachers (and other children) have to now take from a minority of children from nursery onwards. There aren’t any consequences, just ‘restorative conversations’ and endless Cpoms reports.

Teachers are genuinely leaving in droves. As a supply (primary) I have offers of long term posts coming out of my ears. You’ll all be home schooling soon, because there won’t be any teachers left.

I'm not in the UK so might be off mark here... but the movement towards tech based only communication is an issue for many. I have 3 kids currently in 2 schools and one is registered to start in September in another, so I currently have 3 school apps. The schools harp on and on about inclusion on one hand but very quickly exclude those that struggle with technology. I don't struggle per se, but I don't like it. To register my child I had to attach scanned copies of docs that I only had paper copies of, so had to scan email download and attach. I had to fill out multiple Google forms which disappeared leaving me with no record. That's before digital signatures and the downloading and navigation of the app itself. If a paper form had been sent to me it would have been so much easier. I have a colleague whose dyslexia would make this extremely difficult. I have a friend who has sight issues and this is virtually impossible. Before my kid even starts at the school I feel like I've had to do a lot of jumping through hoops and I am an educated person. If I struggled with tech or literacy and had negative memories of schools making me feel stupid or inferior, I can imagine these procedures would make me feel like crap before the child even starts school.

Of course none of this excludes rudeness to a teacher but I think it explains why there can be a hostility there from the start because the teacher is the first human representative of the now faceless school. It's so ironic that schools with so much SEN support and inclusion policies can't see that these need to apply to the parent too.

Two things can be true at once. Just because you had a tough childhood and are married to a con, doesn’t make you any less judgemental with this thread. Times are tough, a lot of people are struggling financially and mentally. I’m not condoning abusive pupils or parents but so many ridiculous rules/regulations in schools now, are borderline in breach of human rights.

We don’t even trust or bow down to government anymore to why would we be treating teachers like they aren’t just flawed humans like the rest of us.

Putting it delicately at DS' school it seems to be the parents who don't work, smell of cigarettes and or alcohol on the school run, with multiple children with appalling attendance, who seem to be the ones constantly moaning and having a pop at the teachers, for little Johnny being told off for punching another child in the playground again, so YANBU

I teach and many parents are a pain. It is usually clear where a particular child’s attitude has come from. I don’t think stooping to their level is the answer. And I was a teacher single parent on tax credits for years. It’s a bit shit to hear your colleagues talk about benefit claimants in a negative way when you’re one of them.

Why do some people who have a university degree suddenly view themselves in the upper echelons of society and look down on others.

Some of my teachers were borderline incompetent and damn right abusive, no way would they be allowed to get away with the things they did and said in the 80/90s, today. With that being said there’s only so much respect I can teach my children to give authority figures without being doormats for adult, unreasonable, immature cruel bullies.

we see it all over media now, police, teachers, medics. We have been taught to not trust authority blindly because it could get ourselves or our loved ones harmed-some of us already know this from experience, we also learned how judgemental and sly some teachers can be and how they can project onto and punish a child because of their dislike of the parents.

Oh by the way your misogyny is showing, the post only seems to be targeted to female parents/care givers.