To find middle class parents insufferable?

There are areas where there is only one school for a big catchment. Google Tavistock in west Devon, or Exmouth. Tavistock is big. 10 form entry so 200-300 pupils each year cohort. Exmouth used to be the biggest secondary school in Europe. I did some of my ITT there.

@ZenNudist You and I sound similar, although you have a nicer car.

There were a few local schools that I thought I would never send my DC there. I kept it to myself and sought other avenues. I don't slag off the school. I know people who have DC at these schools, they all seem ok
I will also say that I have been deeply unimpressed by some local private schools. For £8k per term I would be expecting more rigour and ambition.

But are you really middle-class if you can't use apostrophes? Im middle class.
In my head, what you wrote sounds like "In middle class."

See, that's the trouble with being a snob, as you say you are sometimes. There's always someone snobbing back at you!

Maybe snobbing at each other keeps us Brits going...

🤪

OP you’re just enjoying bashing the middle classes. Everyone should be looking out for their children it’s part and parcel of being a parent.
Most people want good teachers, an environment where their children can learn and decent facilities so I don’t think it’s about ‘mixing with the wrong sort’.
I myself was ‘educated’ at a failing measures lowest 10% comp so I can tell you most of my fellow pupils were and are great but most of my teachers and the absolute lack of ability to learn in the classroom were not.
At parent’s evening most parents turned up, listened respectfully and cared but I don’t think that is happening anymore across the spectrum of socioeconomic classes.
Regardless of how rich people are there are engaged caring parents, angry abusive ones and everything in between.
If you don’t like the conversations start another one; no-one is going to start a lengthy involved conversation at the school gates but that doesn’t mean they aren’t nice or interesting people.
I also believe you should not castigate parents for choosing a private school. Firstly it saves the state money, secondly increasingly many of these children have SEN needs unmet by the state and thirdly if the state school is not providing a decent standard of education and a safe environment then I can not think of a better way to spend hard earned cash.
I think the worst snobbery is from those who have children attending a very good comprehensive who sneer at parents who don’t have that luxury and have to scrape together the funds to go private.

You’re not much of a snob if you’re friends with people who send their children to the failing comps and who go on camping holidays in Wales. Must try harder. 🤣

Im middle class. And a snob (sometimes) but I keep it quiet. I went to look round the large Catholic comp a tram ride from my house and made mental note to pay for education rather than send ds there if he didn't make grammar. Wouldn't touch the failing comps nearer to home. Have said warm And encouraging things to friends whose dc go to said schools though I'm pretty sure my views are clear as I choose to send dc to Catholic grammar a bus ride away.

The trick is to not be a dick.

I'm currently on holiday in a 5 star hotel abroad. Cant stand a camping holiday in Wales. Wouldn't touch cheap AI but don't say that to my mates who go to these places.

I drive a BMW but don't sneer at my friends very nice skoda octavia. Horses for courses.

That said I'm a bit fed up of the middle class dads on this holiday but that's because lots of young parents here and they are all a bit meh.

Yes, of course there are judgemental snobs in the world who look down others’ choice of schools for a variety of reasons; and people who want the safety blanket of familiarity, so choose something similar to their own experience, because they understand that better and feel safer with it; and people who are so scarred by their own experiences that they don’t want even the slightest reminder of it in their child’s school; and people who follow the strident opinions of friends and acquaintances whose children have never even darkened the doors of the schools they are rubbishing, again through fear and ignorance of the reality, or wanting to fit in with their friendship group; and people who listen to vindictiveness on social media and let that sway their decisions. Human beings are not perfect, and nor are schools - any schools.

We are all different from each other and interact differently with our environment. The “middle classes” are not more prone to this than “the rest of society” - you can’t possibly have a middle class without a class system, and can’t possibly have a class system without separation between the classes. To constantly blame the “middle classes” for this, as though they invented the entire class system and are the only ones desperately trying to maintain it and the only ones being deeply judgemental is a load of absolute bollocks. If you don’t want or like a class system, then stop perpetuating it by constantly invoking it as the reason for people’s petty mindedness, fears and anxieties.

I know what you are saying.

Here in Ireland, you are free to apply to any school, it’s not catchment dependent (although they take from catchment first). So despite areas being very mixed socioeconomically now due to the housing crisis, and many primary school being mixed, you find that better educated parents will put their children in secondary schools in better areas. Which creates a divide, mostly in Dublin.

So on a population level, I think this is bad and that we should aim for socially mixed schools and discourage private schooling. When it came down to looking for my own kids, I sent them outside the area.

My OH went to a terrible school in South London, that's still joked about 20 years ago as it was so bad. He has NEVER said any of those things. It's snobbery and internalised classicism that drives it.

I completely agree with you. I've had very similar experiences. Even had one of them tell me there were too many kids of colour in the primary school nearby. My kids are 18 and 15 now though and iver time I just started to challenge all this snobby crap and let them feel uncomfortable because it cimes form a very selfish and self centred place. Ultimately, all the schools bullshit is really about social circles not education and half of them end up with burny out kids they've pushed too hard and aren't happy with the academic funneling.
We're raising kids to function in society and to me, this means having a more ethical approach to child raising and inclusion, not just obsessing over status.

But you are doing the same ? Do you really think people wanting better and more is wrong ?

It's just disingenious posters- ignore. I wouldn't rule out state school- would actually prefer it to private. Sadly our local state school is not a good fit for my ds- his mh would take a toll. It started late primary with behaviours from some boys who then went on to the local secondary. In private they would get kicked out immediately for this but the bar for inacceptable behaviour is sadly very different btw our private and state school. Luckily It's a private catholic secondary that is not expensive so get a good mix- ds best friend is muslim- his mum put him there for the same reasons I did: avoid thugs and embrace academic skills.

It would be interesting to see developments in German education now that their industry is being rapidly destroyed. Before, the country needed masses of skilled workforce so even their Realschule were much much better than British schools. It remains to be seen how they are going to fund excellent free education for the masses when there won't be much for the blue collar to do...
They also have a completely different attitude to discipline, of course.

I agree it's not just about exam grades - and my DC exam grades were good in the end despite dire school.

I do feel the extra the atmpsohere, the lack of ambition for our kids, lack or wider oppotunties there were at the school let them down most.

However when the exam results are as dire as they got at DC school - it did become important because so many found post 16 pathways blocked because they hadn't got the minuium.

I also say it harder or take more self motivation to get the good results when class are constantly disrupted and teachers aren't there or have reach point of crowd control. It's hard to quantifiy for each school or pupil but in many case those kids are working hard or are naturally better to get those "less excelling" grades - it's why some uni offer the lower entry becuase statsically those kids tend to do much better in degrees than stduents from schools with better results and fewer obstacles to overcome.

It's an acknowlegment by some univeristies that the secondary playing field isn't fair and some kids work harder but it doesn't get reflected in results not a they don't have to be as good as that poster you were replying to did seem to be implying.

I live in a suburb of Harrow where most schools are rated Good or Outstanding. Over time, many White British families have gradually moved elsewhere. The area has become largely South Asian, particularly Indian and Sri Lankan families, with a strong, shared emphasis on education, regardless of parents’ jobs or background.

People can interpret this as prejudice. Perhaps the reality is more nuanced.
DP is Franco-German. In Germany, there isn’t the same culture of highly exclusive schools or universities. And in France, good teachers tend to stay in the state system because the conditions are good. The children grow up mixing across a wider range of social backgrounds. The result is a society with a less pronounced class divide.

Er.. this?

You see I disagree on the ‘community minded’ bit of the above. Having children in state schools and private, in the (‘outstanding’) state school the hostility to each other is such that the kids keep their head down, learn what they can and never - ever - thinking of doing anything other than what is asked of them as pupils. The timetable has the subjects they are studying, PE and personal, social etc and that’s it.

The private school on the other hand has the academic classes, then assemblies, form, some sort of philosophical / moral lesson, one whole afternoon for sports and another for enrichment which is a mixture of learning a new skill or volunteering in the community. The kids are so much kinder to each other. It’s so much more wholesome. There’s time to build the whole child, not just trying to ram enough academics into them to get into a good uni.

But let’s not digress into a private school / state school argument. My rough comp taught me to keep my head down otherwise I’d get a beating. My kids ‘outstanding’ state school taught them the same. A good school - state or private - should build he whole child. In some schools it’s easier to do than others.

It’s not always one extreme or the other.

You mention your kids wanting to mix with people of other backgrounds. Many kids who go to a private secondary also went to a state primary.

Have you read The Let Them Theory? Let them be snobs, let them do the extra research and the extra expense of moving or paying for a private school. You and I both know that a child can have a good experience in a state school. We've brought our children up in an area which many people we know are very snobby about and wouldn't consider sending their children to a school in our catchment. More fool them as the local primary is amazing. My kids have all done very well and will have great careers, they're resilient and community spirited. I think it's been good for my teens to know people from a whole range of backgrounds.

The difference that we can make to the life potential of some of the people in our community as one of the more deprived areas is huge. And I would rather be a part of making that change and addressing the inequities in society than putting on blinkers and running away to a more expensive area. The pride I have for some of my kids' mates and those friends' older siblings is huge. The ones who have been the first in their family to go to uni while their mum taught herself to read in her 20s, ones who have turned up and done amazingly at exams despite grief and being a young carer and chaotic housing, ones who've got their own businesses and skills through hard graft and putting in the work. There are so many teens in our area who get a bad rep who are helpful active scouts, who are excellent at sports, who volunteer at community events for older people, who are just decent.

When I tell people where I live they'll often go "oh, there are some nice bits in (name of place)" and I'm like "I don't live in the lovely bit" and they're like "oh" and I go "and I love it". Our house is cheap, we've got great schools, great sense of community, great public transport links, a lovely park, walkable shops, doctors surgery, we're near the beach and the country and a big city. People can get so snooty that they can't appreciate the positive things in a place.

Also I was gentrified out of our home town by richer middle class people moving from London to a place they read about in the Guardian so I couldn't afford to live in the lovelier local place even if I wanted to.

Ok mum, sorry for swearing.

School is not about exam grades and uni offers.
Children spend 8 hours a day at school, it's a huge chunk of life and experience during the formative years.

I suspect you are making assumptions about people’s ’bias’ and underestimating the research they’ll have done.
Parents I knew when our kids were young all had a good handle on the quality of the surrounding secondary schools - had done research, and some (like me) had visited the schools for various different reasons.

Are you a bit of an inverted snob? Honest question.
Snobbery is not always a bad thing - I’m a wine snob and it means I get to drink nice wine 😂 - especially when it comes to your kids. Being aspirational for them is good parenting. Wanting to help them avoid struggles is also good parenting, as is helping them through any struggles they encounter.
Most parents want and do what THEY think is best for their kids. You may disagree with them, but it doesn’t make them or you wrong.

OP’s kids classmates are fleeing the local state school. OP is probably getting the impression she’s fucked up by not doing likewise and instead of working out how to get her kid out of there too, is hitting out at these parents for being too middle class for the local school.

I bet the other parents have done far better research than OP and that’s why they’re going to the effort of moving their child. Why bother otherwise?

State schools at every level are far, far worse than when we were kids. The best state schools are still fine. The mediocre and bad? Any responsible parent ought to be doing all the my can to get their child out of there.

@SezFranklyunfortunately where we live stabbings and gang violence is very common. It’s not that you assume they’ll be stabbed on the way home but it is a reality

This!!

Why on earth would you assume he’d be stabbed at the local comp? Ofsted says good but you think everyone is in there waving machetes around?

DD went to her intake school with majority estate kids (it’s a church school). Did really well and is now studying her a-levels. Made some good friends. Learned who to stay away from but was never in any danger. Worst behaviour from peers is probably vaping.

She hasn’t learned how to infiltrate government, lie in Westminster and embezzle/outsource contracts to her mates though, so maybe she is at a disadvantage 😂