Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

I think realistically the children who are in mainstream schools acting violently towards other children, probably need to be in specialist provision rather than “locked up.”

Yep, despite being a known threat and violent, it was of course his human rights to have 4 hours a day alone to do what he wanted of course.. he’s now a 3:1 I believe due to his repeated attacks on staff.
am assuming he’ll still have posters arguing he should still be allowed trips out though

I agree with the OP. Was also reading about the poor boy pushed off the Tate Modern by an autistic man, who was in fact in some kind of supported living but had been allowed out alone!

All these young lives ruined or extinguished, wrong place and time.

I agree with your basic premise, but a concern I would have is that with younger kids, the school would end up not dealing with normal behaviours appropriately. This is something I've seen before, with zero tolerance policies that were applied in a really stupid way, or even in a nursery that simply expelled kids going through a very normal biting phase that would have passed with appropriate management.

For some reason it seems like no matter what policies they adopt, there will be a fair number of these people in schools who don't seem to have any sense about how to actually implement them or what is normal and abnormal childhood behaviour.

I am guessing by this response that you have never been involved with or visited any of these places?

are you proposing these people are put in these places forever?

PRU’s are schools not with residential so I fail to see how this makes a difference, they already exist and the majority of ‘these children’ already attend there. It just puts them all in one place. Exceptionally difficult to manage.

mental health units are already rammed full, and the criteria to be sectioned is extremely high. Even when people are sectioned as in VC’s case, guess what, they come out; many MH conditions fluctuate and are lifelong, therefore managing this is a long term thing and not straightforward.

YOI’s, you can’t put someone here until they have committed a crime. Again they are full and temporary solution. These kids have to come out. They often come out more damaged and worse than before due to the experience of prison.

you are suggested a very ‘lock up and throw away the key’ solution. Whereas actually we need to spend more money on prevention and rehabilitation. These people will need to live in society at some point and punishment does not work to enable people to do this. It makes it worse. You may remove the problem for a year, or 5, but that problem will come back with a vengeance if we take this approach.

But there are no places for that to happen. Not just that, but at what age would you start? 5/7/9/11/15?

Even asking the question is bonkers. Violence is never the right answer.

I work for an IAS service and there seems to be a stark divide. We have so many parents who fiercely are screaming out for help, very aware their children are heading to a very dark situation. Dangerous sexualised behaviours. Violence. So on.. we find those parents often get the least help as relevant services see they recognise the risk and that therefore is a protective factor. We've had cases where the police have told the parent to take them to the police station and refuse to take them home.

The other camp is parents who use autism and adhd to avoid their children ever being accountable or the idea that even children with significant needs can learn. They are really difficult to work with.

Autism, adhd and other needs make learning harder but you adapt how you teach them. We do a HUGE disservice not giving this support young.

So many parents now will find any excuse for their children's poor behaviour. In the past dress codes and behaviour in school were enforced and backed up by parents. Now children challenge uniform code and are encouraged by their parents. In the past you got your school uniform from a selected shop no deviations and hugely expensive. Now you can buy basic uniform everywhere and parents still complain. You give your children unrestricted access to mobile phones and the Internet. Your children have no respect for adults, the police their teachers or their parents. They are ferel and no one is allowed to discipline all the little princes and princesses. The world is growing quiet everyone staring at their phones. Everyone has ADHD or is on the spectrum so they are allowed to behave as if the rules dont apply to them. All boys see is violence and sexist aggressive porn. So much complaining about everything and forgetting how just 50 or 70 years ago people didnt have 1/2of what you think you deserve. It's tragic.

Glad you realised what I was actually saying.

I think the 'Right care, Right person' policy which has rolled out into virtually every police force area has a lot to answer for.

The consultant psychiatrist & specialist in assertive outreach in psychosis that was speaking at the Southport enquiry earlier today articulated that very well when he said that RCRP has seriously harmed joint working between police & mental health services.

Its also come up at the Nottingham enquiry.

It's not so much a case of letting someone get away with something because of ASD or severe mental illness but a complete system failure where complex cases are being passed between overstretched & underfunded services like a hot potato.

To be honest est I wish AR was chained to a radiator and those little girls were alive to enjoy their life

As a mum to a lad with milder autism - although you can see it very clearly when he’s dealing with strangers or in a strange situation - I seriously resent this acceptance of violence ‘because autism’. No, the Tate pusher did not do what he did or attacked people since because he had autism it is because he is a shit. My lad has nothing in common with these scum whatsoever.

I spent some time working in SEND schools being attacked by kids regularly. Some really don’t understand and can’t cope. Others just use it as an excuse, and the number of males who attack women only, not the male staff, out of pure sexism and misogyny is far too high. It’s learned and culturally encouraged behaviour.

My point exactly. Hand wringing over the rights of bad kids and no concern whatsoever for the rights of good kids.

Agreed.

My friends son was repeatedly attacked by the same boy, from primary all the way to sixth form for no reason other than the boy didn’t like him.

Excuses were always made, he has this issue or that issue. IMO I couldn’t care less what issue you have, you don’t put your hand on other people.

I am sick to death of violent people being excused from being violent. We all have the right to go about our business without being assaulted.

Fucking hell. Reported.

Glad you acknowledge it.

You cannot be ‘sectioned’ unless you have a diagnosed mental disorder and autism without LD or another MH disorder like psychosis which he didn’t have is a not a reason you can be detained.

And this new MH Bill is now removing autism from the list of MH disorders which can lead to detention. To prevent inappropriate detentions of people with ASD. This has been opposed by many clinicians, people with ASD and their families and advocates who actually believe it should remain for some situations.

So it will be harder to detain people with ASD now.

I didn’t say it never happened here 🙄 I said the photo flying round the internet that most people see is of a Romanian orphanage.

So you have no argument? What do you think should happen to violent children? Do you not have an opinion? Surely you must?

You’re quite right. I didn’t look at the photo - because I’m not on FB so can’t see it. Again, you’re missing the point, and muddling two separate things. See my post above…..er, not that you’ll bother to read it, right? Is that how we do it?

No, I addressed your sneery and dismissive "oh it never happened here" attitude. It did.
I make no argument on another ground.

You miss the point. Nobody, including me, to be crystal clear, thinks abusing SEND children in that way is good - not in the past, not now, not ever, and not anywhere.

My criticism was of the way that was used when absolutely nobody was talking about it as an attempt to shut down discussion. It was a silly, trite comment IMO.

People were talking about specialist provision rather than mainstream schools - and suddenly we’re accused of wanting to straitjacket children and chain children to radiators. As I said, stupid. And no, that’s not dismissive of the historical abuse of SEN children - but of those who use hyperbole rather than debate.