Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

I left teaching (secondary) because of this exact policy. You can imagine trying to teach a disruptive teenager Shakespeare when he knows if he calls you a cunt then he can trot off for a hot chocolate instead! It frustrated me that not only were the kids who wanted to learn disadvantaged by this, but also just how badly we were setting the troubled/troubling kids up to fail. There would be a celebration of getting X through the end of Year 11 without him being excluded, but X was then completely fucked in a world where there were actual consequences to his behaviour. The roll of former students like that who went from school to prison or the cemetery was bleak and I found it unbearable in the end. I went into teaching to do some good in the world, but it felt like the system wasn't set up to enable that.

The police are obliged to take a person in a public place who they beleive are having a mental health crisis to a place of safety to be assesed by mental health professionals under a section 136

I doubt it. Schools are packed with teachers who want to be kind to and make adjustments for kids with awful behaviour. They need kicking out but won't happen.

Its an extremely broad spectrum
My son is severly autistic with severe learning disabilties and can have challenging behaviour and hit out
But hes in a special school for children with severe and profound learning disabillities ,whilst he doesnt undetstand his actions his carers do and hes never left on his own
Its not acceptable to just say theres nothing that can be done becauss a person has autism.

A change of attitude is needed. I hope there are recommendations at the end of this.

Ultimately did he have capacity to understsnd his actions?
If he wasent psychotic
Then yes he probably did he was able to plan and carry out the horriic murders ..

All school kids will tell you that there is a two tier behaviour policy. One for the generally good kids, but completely different rules for the handful who make their lives a misery, disrupt lessons, and are violent towards them.

I agree OP. Excuses/some attempt at an explanation are not good enough, especially when the outcome to any victim is the same (whether from ASD or non-ASD individual).

Of course ASD is so incredibly common now that I do expect a push back of excuses not being acceptable, as ASD is seen as more mainstream.

If a child hit my child, I would not accept excuses of ASD.

It starts earlier. Kids should not be allowed mobile phones with unlimited apps like YouTube. School discipline policies at primary level need to label bad behaviour more clearly not just “therapeutic” nonsense about “big feelings”. There must be consequences, discipline, structure, respect and rules.

Parents need to stop letting kids off and allowing them to be violent little screen addicts but you can’t police inside the home so the only way is to limit what kids can see on screen

I'm a primary school teacher. We have had several children who can become violent and dysregulated. I have had to evacuate classes becaise a child is throwing chairs/tables/scissors. I have been hit, kicked and bitten. The school has sought support from every possible agency. The Local Authority does not allow exclusions for violent behaviour if the student has SEND. "Experts" will come in to advise us who usually tell us to give them a visual timetable as if that will solve everything. Eventually they will usually get an EHCP, but it takes years and then will often state that a mainstream school can meet their needs. If the parents don't want specialist provision there is zero chance of getting it

The report into the Southport killings was correct in that agencies just try to bump as many cases as possible onto someone else. Endless referrals that take forever and go nowhere. I have personal experience with my own autistic DC with mental health difficulties. It's like different agencies fight between themselves not to have to be the one who takes responsibility.

Not the UK but...

A trip to Cafe Nero and a therapeutic gardening session I expect.

No it hasn't. There was no mental illness and he did not meet the criteria to be sectioned. The Public Inquiry has pointed out that many of his actions were dismissed because of his autism and pointed out that there is gap in how we treat violent fixated individuals who do not have terrorist ideology

If the Greens get power, it will get worse as they plan to close all the prisons. What will they do with AR then?

Agree 100%. A friend of mine works in Forensic CAMHS. She has 15 AR’s on her caseload. She has no idea which of the 15 is going to kill at any point.

As a society we have all tolerated piss poor behaviour from certain children from certain families (I remember them from school and I am 42 now!).
It shouldn't matter what label/diagnosis you have, if you cannot behave in a socially appropriate fashion you should not be allowed free reign to be behaving however you fancy.
I do believe it is time to bring back well managed group homes for people unable to function properly amongst the general population. The push to have every one out in the community is the cause of much of the issues we have now.
I don't expect this to be a popular opinion though.

The saddest thing about it all is that there are likely hundreds/ thousands of ARs out there, and hundreds/ thousands of families of people like AR who are seeking help, but none is coming. They won't all go on to murder of course, but they're being seriously let down by the authorities regardless. But people generally are not in favour of increasing taxes to support overwhelmed services, so these incidents will continue.

I don't think ASD was an excuse for what he did. But his unsupported ASD was clearly a direct cause, particularly when the family had been crying out for help. Like many thousands of others are.

I understand what you're saying, op. But what is the solution? Where do these kids go and who pays for it? Because not all of it stems from parenting failure. Systems are also not fit for purpose. It's systemic failure.

I think you need to get in there early. We have violent, anti-social children in my primary school. Some have something wrong with them beyond the help of the school, but many of them could be helped - if we were allowed to. All the children I’m thinking of are below the age of 8.

Instead, these children are indulged and tiptoed around, and rarely receive any punishment at all. In fact, not only do they not receive punishment, they sometimes receive rewards or misplaced ‘sympathy’ instead of the guidance they need. This isn’t doing them any favours as their behaviour becomes worse and nobody wants to be near them - so they get angry and it all becomes a vicious circle.

I think we need less ‘tolerance’ of aberrant behaviour. Then for the very small number of children who need specialist help because they have other/serious issues, we need to step in quickly once this becomes apparent and provide the appropriate support.

I remember contacting my eldest son’s school because a boy he did PE with had started charging at him while he was half dressed and ramming him up the backside with two pointed forefingers, among other ‘hi jinx’. It happened a few times before my son told me. The first thing the head of year said to me was ‘Oh, I know X. I should just make you aware that he’s statemented’. Eh? What’s that got to do with the price of fish? He was effectively sexually assaulting my child. I have a younger son with a Statement of Educational Needs and he doesn’t go around ramming his fingers up people’s arses. I didn’t answer and just let the silence hang there until he bloody well caught himself on and stuttered his way through what would be done next. I have no time for special needs being used as an excuse for violent behaviour. I get why the behaviour might happen, but it is not up to other children to simply endure it.

It’s not just getting help but systemic failure and looking away. The police taking him back home when found with a knife, smiling as he said what he wanted to do. The headteacher asked not to stereotype.

Everyone pushing away chances to intercept.

But now the taxpayer has to look after AR for 52 years at 60k per year, plus the cost of all the policing around the aftermath. Doh.