Violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors

Well in the 70s and 80s we didn’t have a choice. There were violent kids in every year and ‘school refusal’ wasn’t an option because you would be forced to go anyway

I agree 100% that violent children should be stopped regardless of other factors.

I think i would probably disagree with some people on what would be an effective way to stop it for some individuals. (Theres more than one cause for violent behaviour and i dont purport to know the solution for all of them)

Yep. You only have to look on here to see all the posts about “harsh schools” and “was this punishment too strong” where people are constantly questioning schools and their discipline.
How about parents teach their child not to be rude and feral and then the teachers wouldn’t have to punish them in the first place?
It stems from home. Useless parents with zero ability to parent their kids, seeking any opportunity to abscond themselves of responsibility (“I can’t tell him off because he’s autistic… I can’t take his phone away and keep him off the internet because he’s got ADHD and he needs it to regulate himself…”)
Excuse after excuse time and time again.
Is it any wonder we are where we are?

I fear for the world my niece and nephew are growing up in.

Yes, I think you're right in that a huge part of the issue is actually understanding different types of violence within a diagnostic context, and this is something I referenced on another thread recently.

If there was a real understanding of autistic violence, then professionals would be able to correctly identify other comorbid conditions that are likely present alongside the autism and more likely to result in violence such as that shown by AR.

Things like understanding the difference between nervous system collapse (fight, flight, freeze) for which there is a markedly different physiological response to external stimuli (i.e. heat of the moment violent meltdown) than premeditated and callous aggression, such as that found in individuals with other conditions - such as BPD.

My dd can be aggressive in the moment due to nervous system response (autism and associated heightened anxiety). Though she exhibits this with me only (she's the model of a well behaved child at school due to masking), she's a far cry from planning a callous murder on a stranger because there is nothing wrong with her levels of empathy.

It was the same with Jonty Bravery. People put his actions down to 'autism', but there was far more going on that led him to plan and carry out a premeditated callous attack.

There needs to be a zero tolerance policy of violence in any setting. I don't understand why we are expecting teachers, other pupils and professionals to put up with it.

That's deeply concering - lessons should be learned and children should be given therapy before they get to the AR state of mind - but how - and with what funding and skills.

So what? the pose danger to the public so should be isolated.

The guy who threw the child from Tate terrace has sever mental disability. He shouldn't ever be allowed any freedom.

I remember a boy my kids went to primary school with. As soon as he kicked off he was taken to play football with a TA. Effective punishment! His older sister had been excluded and was at a PRU. parents couldn't see anything wrong with their kids behaviour, it was all the schools fault. Finally he was excluded. He's now in prison. Oh, but he has ADHD now, so none of it is his fault. (I have a child with ADHD, he's managed not to be violent, get excluded from school or go to prison)

Meanwhile on Facebook his mum can be found spouting off about badly behaved kids like hers weren't ever like that!

This was in relation to the PP who said the figure was 85%.
This report says different.
That's all. No agenda.

There is no discipline for many children at home or at school, it's all gentle hands at home and teacher's aren't allowed any effective form of control in school, children can hit, kick and swear at teacher's and they can do nothing. The balance has gone too far in the direction of children should be treated with kid gloves and mustn't be talked to harshly or punished for anything, so they grow up thinking they can do whatever they like with no consequences.

Don't worry, they won't.

It should be zero tolerance there should always be a consequence or punishment rather than hand waving.

Sen, bad home life, living in a cardboard box don’t speak the language should not be allowed to be an excuse for violence.

We shouldn’t have teachers regularly evacuating class rooms because that child should be removed from the school before it becomes regular.

Like a pp. There are children in every bloody class who get away with so much because of an issue. While generally good children would be punished for less than even half the behaviour of those other children.

We had to fight this at one of my children’s schools a boy constantly bullying, oh but his Sen . Idngaf he is a bully end of discussion.

A study has estimated that a quarter (25%) of people in prison have an attention deficit/ hyperactivity disorder (ADHD), around one in 10 (9%) have an autism spectrum disorder, and around one in 10 (9%) have an intellectual disability.

prisonthefacts_2023.pdf

Mental health issues are very different.

Being able to access MH services is shockingly difficult.
Apparently the waiting lists are years long.

There have been many cases of parents or wives/husbands begging MH services saying they’re going to kill someone and still nothing was done.

There was the women who drowned her kids but the DH had been begging for help for ages.

There is just not enough help out there.

I agree OP.

I send my children to school with clear instructions to hit back. They won't be anyone's punching bag just because the school is too scared to do anything.

There is a huge issue with diagnostic overshadowing. Once you have an autism diagnosis everyone refuses to consider that you have anything distinct from it - depressed? Oh that autism. Anxious? Its autism. Personality disorder? No, that’s autism.

Whether speaking to CAMHS, school, social services… oh, it’s because of the autism.

It was bloody frustrating trying to get support for my gender dysphoric and self harming child. In the end we got nothing unless we went privately and that wasn’t much help because… autism. Probably because 90% of people in those departments don’t actually know anything about autism, how it presents in girls rather than boys, how ethno/cultural/socio factors may impact and shape its presentation. Lots of people who see the diagnosis on a form think they know everything, when they know absolutely nothing.

AR was ASD. But that has pretty much nothing to do with the fact that he is also mentally ill, socio/psychopathic, radicalised and ineffectually parented. Am appalled that the system failed those little girls and that community.

Sorry, am a ranting AuDHD mum of two AuDHD kids who absolutely know right from wrong and would never commit acts like this in the name of their ‘autism’. I fear that they will soon have to hide their diagnosis with because of coverage like this and the rapidly changing perception of what it actually means - ie it does not make you a sociopath.

ETA a million typos

I disagree. I used to teach and think that teachers are their own worst enemy. Willing to accept all that crap because it gives them the opportunity to polish their inclusive halo. Oh how they love the "challenging" kids.

Some teachers in a few schools have said no more and walked out. Most won't.

It’s really difficult because 85% of prisoners have ND.
The others likely have awful home lives.
Many had both.

A dog that has been raised in an abusive home is going to have behavioural issues.

That doesn’t meant that ND = bad behaviour and most ND individuals are the opposite and have exemplary behaviour.

But schools used to be much stricter with bad behaviour and basically wash their hands of them and expel them - this is a great short term solution, especially for other kids in the class and teachers but it does not help the individual at all.

There is a strong correlation between being expelled from school and going to prison as an adult.

If these children don’t get the help now, then they grow up to become problem adults which we still have to deal with as a society.

So schools now try and keep these kids in school to get them the help they need and try and nip things in the bud so that they don’t grow up to be abusers, rapists, murderers etc

But this results in very stressed teachers and other kids having a worse school life because of it.

I think the government needs to put more funding into schools and every school needs to have dedicated staff members and rooms where instead of being expelled, these kids can be removed from the classroom but still given the education and help they need.

At the very least, they need to prioritise teaching assistants and realise that they are essential.

I don’t think most mainstream schools are set up to deal with ND or traumatised children, purely because of time and limited staff members.

I have worked in SEND units and PRUs and they get discipline and sanctions for bad behaviour and it’s shocking that this doesn’t always happen in mainstream schools.
Yes they get allowances because of their issues but ultimately they need to be taught right from wrong.

If their parents don’t teach them right from wrong then it’s on us to do it for them so that we can help this child who wants to do well and make friends etc and ultimately make them better adults too.

The trouble is, so many parents claim that their kids are ND and so you have half of the class needing ‘special treatment’.

The children I know who have been in secure or YOIs or PRUs come out just as, if not more, angry and violent. It might temporarily move the situation away from mainstream but it doesn't 'stop' anything. It's a last resort and yes cost is a factor but it's far from the only reason.

Trouble is the bog standard ways of disciplining and dealing with this behaviour often pushes them the other way.

If there is autism/ND in the mix, very often there is violence because of how they are being treated - normal discipline often does not work, but a flexible approach from schools has all but gone.

We had a local PRU that was amazing and turned loads of young people’s lives around, it’s now been academised with their special brand of authoritarian discipline - it’s now churning out even more troubled youngsters, many of whom end up in crime and prison.

There’s a fine line between letting kids get away with it and finding methods that actually work.

He was sectioned multiple times. Most people in MH inpatient care are of color - certainly have been when I've been to visit friends and family members in these places.

The issue with him was lack of follow up to make sure he stayed on his meds.

You also mention PRU with this Southport chap - he was in one already.

In both cases the challenge is where cases aren't 'cut and dried' ie: clear MH diagnosis, or certain specific re-offending, the issues get passed from one agency to another, with very limited possibility for anyone to do anything prior to a severe crime actually being committed.

I disagree. Schools are packed with teachers who have been kicked, punched, bitten & spat at. They've had chairs and tables thrown at them.

They are not allowed to make the appropriate adjustments, ie remove the violent child to an environment where he or she can be educated safely. They are forced by the local authority to continue with the children in situ, because councils cannot afford special school places.

The problem is health/learning issues are a vulnerability that schools need to flag and act on. It goes both ways, they are at risk of challenge if they are too harsh on feral children with ASD, which they clearly deem to have a worse impact to them vs if they were too soft on the feral children