To not understand what this parent was thinking?

My non-rescue, owned since a puppy dog is scared of small children. We don't know any children so she's never really been socialised with them (and it's frowned upon to ask small children you don't know if they want to come and play with your puppy).

They're loud, unpredictable and often not respectful of personal space. All scary to my dog who's smaller than any child she's ever met.

Sounds like she knows nothing about dogs and also nothing about how to look after children.

I was asking for opinions on the parenting of the young boy who approached us.

We know. You very badly want to get opinions on this. We can hear your strangled cries of 'why aren't people hating more on the moootthhhherr!!!!'

But it's taken a different route, based on your behaviour and lack of accountability.

Take this scenario to any legal authority and ask them for their opinions on her conduct, and yours. Tell them exactly what you've said here - how well educated you are, how angelic your dog, how monstrous the mother. Even show them pictures if you like. I promise you they will tell you that despite all your 'degree' knowledge and fancy letters, you are still in the wrong.

So that's probably why people aren't solely focussed on only the select parts of this story you want them to be.

Congratulations on the most batshit crazy, ridiculous post on here.

It’s the parents fault for not watching their child and allowing it to approach a stranger’s dog. What good parent allows this to happen?!? But of course the little darlings are allowed to do whatever they want and nothing is ever the parent’s fault.

@Frequency unfortunately I experience stupid parents like these too. I think all dog owners do. You’re not alone.

That is complete nonsense. Its not even as the book suggests, which is likely nonsense in its origin ideas but specifically calls out their broken traits and that you can't predict anymore.

Dogs have attacked out of nowhere with no previous signs or behaviour, and they have killed front the same position. That is just a fact.

I know this because I am a degree-educated, formerly APDT-registered behaviourist who has previously worked with dogs professionally.

Yet you don't take water out for him on a walk?

I don't believe your dog should be muzzled, but for a professional you put your dog in an extremely vulnerable position and you handled the interaction terribly, letting your anxious daughter intervene and lay hands on a child, instead of instinctively removing your dog.

I've always had dogs, sometimes situations creep up on us, which can be people, bicycles, children approaching, it is up to you to be aware and intervene in those situations, if your dog did react negatively to those situations and something happened that would be your fault for not being on the ball, it doesn't matter what the catalyst is.. the problem would then be your dog, and by association you, as the owner responsible for their behaviour.

The parent is clearly shit.. she wasn't paying attention and didn't seem to care about either child.. you don't need to start a thread to ask that. But you weren't paying attention either.

If you only want pps to agree with you, whats the point of posting on mumsnet. There is a real lack of self accountability.

Is this in sarcasm? Clearly a dog that can’t be trusted not to bite someone randomly entering its personal space when it’s on a walk should be muzzled. There’s not a single argument why it shouldn’t. I thought this was standard practice?

This isn't about your dog's behaviour or training, only your responsibilities. Those are factual, even though you don't want to face it.

Your vigilance and judgement was off, otherwise you wouldn't have found yourself in this situation - you don't want to face that either.

My thread was not about my dog's behaviour or my ability to manage him. It was about the other mother's ability to parent and my disbelief at her utter lack of concern for both of her children.

I've addressed this, I wonder if you read that bit? It's very clear you want a smug criticism-fest of the mother, no one misunderstands that bit. Sadly, that attention has turned to you somewhat and you've found yourself, and your ability to properly manage your dog, in the cross hairs. That's unfortunate but when you put these things on the internet and there are glaring holes in your conduct, that tends to happen.

If I ever have any concerns about my dog's behaviour that I don't feel I could easily resolve myself, MN is the very last place I would come to for advice.

Neither should you. Again, this isn't about your dog's behaviour or training, only your responsibility.

I would instead contact former colleagues who are more up to date with the latest behavioural studies and training techniques than I am.

Shall I say it again? This isn't about your dog's behaviour or training, only your responsibility.

Oh good grief. This doesn't matter either, not one bit. You talk about other people's reading comprehension but you keep going over the same irrelevancies.

Nobody cares what book you've read - I don't, the public at large don't, the law doesn't. You can know the most about dog behaviour in all the world but you STILL were clearly in the wrong here and you need to face that, refusing to do so only puts your dog at risk. That's not my opinion, it's fact. Protect your dog!

None. Of. This. Matters. I hope you can hear that.

This is a rehash of the things you've said before - and so many people have told you it has NO relevance to the fact that YOU are criminally responsible for our dog. Saying your dog is not aggressive is completely irrelevant, even if you put it in bold.

Take the advice and facts you've been given and change your behaviour going forward. If you love your dog, why on earth wouldn't you? Stubbornly refusing to acknowledge the reality of the situation because you're hanging on to factually inconsequential beliefs is not acting in their best interests.

I don't keep him away from children because I am worried about aggression; I keep them away because he is unsure of them, and he looks to me to keep him safe and happy. Forcing interactions with something he is unsure about without controlling them and keeping them calm and positive could cause him to become fear-aggressive, so I don't do it.

This paragraph alone is astonishing, and shows that you haven't grasped the situation. You clearly feel it will absolve you but it actually does the exact opposite. You have admitted he is unsure (ie a known temperament), you have said an unfortunate interaction where you can't control the circumstances could cause him to become fear-aggressive - and yet here you are in one. You may not have forced him into it but it happened on your watch anyway, as will always be the case when living in the real world. So your admission that you knew it was a possibility and you were not vigilant to stop it is damning.

If you are ever involved in any situation with your dog - do not say a word to anyone until you have legal representation, you will talk yourself further into a hole.

There are other factors and responsibilities that are also relevant but there is no getting away from the fact that toddlers should be protected by their parents from getting into situations like this and all children should be educated not to touch a dog without prior permission from the handler.

Yes, I don’t think anyone is in disagreement about that.

Parents who allow their toddlers to run up to dogs and grab them are stupid.

There are other factors and responsibilities that are also relevant but there is no getting away from the fact that toddlers should be protected by their parents from getting into situations like this and all children should be educated not to touch a dog without prior permission from the handler.

So, here's the thing: you don't need to have very carefully avoided saying you don't think your dog would be aggressive or 'grab his face' - I'm sure most dog owners would say the same and in fact there is no defence in law for an owner to claim they had no reason to believe their dog would behave that way.

You have stated, several times, that your dog is 'wary' around children and is not well socialised with them. That is admission enough that you are aware of a specific temperament issue, even if only at particular times or in particular circumstances, making you culpable for any reaction. You also were not paying enough attention to your surroundings to recognise an unsupervised child was approaching your dog. That puts you squarely on the hook for any outcome - be that an attack, or simply your dog being traumatised (as you said).

Your bleeding-heart concerns for the child being scared by 'another, less friendly' dog or running into traffic etc are irrelevant and, imo, a thinly-veiled attempt to have a sanctimonious pile-on about how silly people are around dogs, unlike yourself, a super-duper dog owner, who knows all about it. "Oh, I just can't believe other people don't behave the way I behave, aren't they all just so (to use your word) dim!!??. Let's discuss".

However, this thread didn't quite go the way you expected, with several people rightly pointing out that whether you were talking about a hypothetical or not, you are in the wrong in this situation - both practically and in the eyes of the law. You were aware your dog is wary, you were not vigilant in your surroundings, and you have created this problem yourself, wholly unrelated to the mother's actions.

My reading comprehension is just fine: you wanted this to be about other people's failures. But a central theme has emerged and this is now an interesting conversation about responsible dog ownership, regardless of others. In this situation you have fallen short. While it is clear that you did take some good-faith precautions, these are not adequate given what you now know about the law, your responsibilities, and other people's behaviour. Perhaps you should reflect on that going forward and consider how you can act in the future to keep your dog safe, if no one else. You would be a fool not to.

If you want to make any comeback, you might want to consult a lawyer who can further make you aware of your responsibilities. It will harder to dismiss them as 'dog-hating frothers' on the internet, or belittle their IQ when you don't like what you're hearing.

OP was absolutely right that the mother was negligent.

OP also seemed to be unaware of her own responsibilities in the situation though, which was concerning, and that’s why people spoke up.

Any startled dog can pose a threat to the general public. In this case the dog is large, a breed that is illegal to walk unmuzzled in other countries, and, though he looks lovable in the pictures OP shared, in real life he’s clearly formidable. OP said that people usually cross the road to avoid passing him. He’s of a size that could do serious damage if he’s started or frightened, most especially to a small child standing next to his face. He’s wary of and uncomfortable around children.

The child shouldn’t have been standing next to his face. The mother, of course, should not have allowed that to happen. It was dangerous for both child and animal.
OP shouldn’t have let it happen either. She doesn’t accept that.

We all know how easy it is to get distracted or busy with something else. We have no power over other people or how well they parent their children. So, if you’re walking a large, powerful dog in a built-up area with members of the general public including children about, I do think it’s a good idea, firstly, to determine to keep a very close eye on what’s happening around you, and secondly, to keep your dog muzzled. These two actions would help protect the public and your dog too.

My dad has a Great Dane and it always amazes me how fearless kids are around him. He’s bigger than a lot of toddlers and so many of them just toddle right up to him. He’s a friendly dog, but because he’s huge he can be clumsy. We are always having to bat other people’s kids away! Adults on the other hand are often afraid of him.

Well, no. I don't think anyone's defended the mother. But they have ignored the point of the thread and discussed their opinions on the safety of OP's dog with certain people repeatedly claiming he needs a muzzle when it's not been suggested at any point that he posed any kind of threat.

The thread wasn't "AIBU to have my anxious, bitey dog unmuzzled in a playground" - which would justify these comments - but rather it was a thread asking about the astonishment that any parent could leave their young child in charge of their younger child despite knowing there was a danger present (albeit in this case an exaggerated one). Yet few have mentioned that at all.

Would you approach a person and grab its face while eating? No, so it's not that difficult to give other species the same space

Because the child has zero chance of killing the dog, and near zero of trying. The dog has a near certain chance of killing the child when it snaps, and as evidenced by the unease of the OP a high chance of snapping when a curious child accidentally ends up near.

@bornwithhorns No it’s not hard to keep hold of your child when out and about nor is it hard to teach your kids to not approach dogs but as witnessed by the poster some parents just don’t care and toddlers and small children who don’t know any better shouldn’t suffer the negligence of that. If you don’t think that a dog should be muzzled whose owner is apprehensive it will go for a little child then let’s just not muzzle any dog at all regardless because it’s everyone else’s responsibility. Let unhinged and aggressive dogs be out in public unmuzzled because it’s down to the parent to keep their child away, when we know there are parents out there who are just as naive and wreckless as the people who have the mindset that these unpredictable dogs shouldn’t be muzzled. What if it were a disabled adult who had severe mental impairment and they approached one of these dogs? Should they know any better than a toddler too? Should we blame the disabled adults carer? These are babies you’re disregarding over a dog. Babies who don’t always have good, responsible and caring parents to keep them out of harms way.

@TryingToFigureLifeOutcall me a fool all you want but my kids were raised to never go up to a on lead strange dog
like I said it’s not hard is it