Parental estrangement. What do you secretly think?

i agree there. i know with both narcissists in my family their actions come from a place of insecurity and hurt. i do understand that but i also feel as an individual while compassion is possible people are allowed to cut contact if it hurts them and their family. i think that is what makes it so painful especially if it is a child parent relationship

I think it's complicated. Bad behaviour doesn't automatically mean someone is a bad person and you have different dynamics as a friend.

If you are parenting with unreasolved trauma that is likely to impact on the relationship you might have with your kids.
Drink and drug issues, infidelity, boundary issues, being generally uncomfortable with parent/child dynamics. It can make relationships very difficult and everyone has the right to protect their peace. Putting up with behaviour and impacting on mental health isn't as accepted as it used to be.

It's sad, but I wouldn't always assume it was for any deplorable reason or huge fall out, though obviously for some people it might be.

One observation-

in sometimes think it’s easier to disconnect from the “decent” parent than it is the problematic one.

for example your parents have split up. One remains neutral, never says anything bad about the other parent or the relationship, is there for the child no matter what. The other is emotional, demands loyalty, that they pick them, and emotionally manipulates-you love me more, don’t spend time with the other parent, etc etc.

it’s easier to go nc with the neutral parent as you know there’ll be no drama, and they’ll be there should you ever need. Whereas continuing the relationship means constant drama from the other parent, so it’s easier to keep them happy by cutting or reducing contact.

it’s always painful to get to the point where reducing contact with the parent is the only option. it’s especially painful if the rest of the family though understanding the hurt choose to prioritise the feelings of one side over the other and expect you to just put up with it because it’s you mother/father. even now i would be open to relationship again provided accountability was taken, changes were made to deal with the substance abuse and there was a sincere apology for the pain caused. i am still waiting but no longer think my mother is capable of it which is the point my family believe i should just accept her and have a relationship again as i am asking for the impossible. but i also have a 2 year old now and his stability and safety are my priority if that means no relationship with my mother so be it

I also think one of the big reasons it seems more common these days is because people are more open about it.

DH’s Grandad was a violent man. His Granny couldn’t leave him. His children wouldn’t have dared speak out against him as it was very much not the done thing (and DV wasn’t seen as a problem anyway). So other than the couple of children who moved abroad everyone stayed in basic contact with him for Granny’s sake.

When my father was violent my school cared. My Brownie leader offered my mother help. Very very few people thought it should be something that was hidden or was somehow something I should be ashamed of.

That shift is huge. Even though there are still people who judge anyone NC with family members it’s nothing like it was years before.

I agree with this - of the child is the instigator then there is likely a very serious intractable problem with the parent (addiction, personality disorder, MH, unsupported ND, abuse, neglect, enabling) - I think it takes a lot for a child to disconnect from a parent. I wonder how much it happens the other way round - is it 50/50?

i think standards are very much still the same. any case of where the child goes nc i have heard about is similar to myself where the parent has a drinking or drug problem or both and no respect for boundaries thinking they can still speak to their child as if they are a child

Sounds like your grandmother and sister are cut from the same cloth - some MH or personality disorder in common.

there's much less respect today. I could have gone nc with parents, some people would have done . You just put up with it and took the good with the bad Learnt to navigate. You couldn't imagine not seeing them ever.
These days I think people cut people off easier.
So they weren't estranged but could have been. Everyone is different what they can take.

Yeah, as someone who cut their parents off for a period, we are in contact now but I keep them at arms length, it’s nearly always the parents.
My parents should not, ever, have had children. I have told them that and they agree. I’m lucky that I’m an only
child because not only would another poor child have been inflicted with my parents shoddy parenting it would likely have been even worse because my mother who admits she had no emotional spoons for me when I was a child due to my Dads temper (I strongly suspect my Dad is autistic but he ‘doesn’t believe in mental health’) would have had even less to give. They are image obsessed, vain people who should have just lived their lives being the two of them. Even now their house is like a show home, looks like no-one lives there. Not a hair out of place, so having a child was a nightmare for them. The smacked me around a lot, locked me in my room for so long I would pee in my bin. My childhood was made up of them screaming and shouting at each other and at me. Dad was rarely around he worked late constantly. One night when I was 6 or 7, my Mum got so fed up she screamed at me, simply walked out of the house, got in her car and drove off for about half an hour, nobody else was in the house.

School always thought I was ‘quirky’ but never looked into it because they saw a pair of middle class earners who took their child on at least two foreign holidays a year and put on a great show to everyone outside the house.

It took me a long time to learn that love isn’t screaming at each other, that being treated with kindness is actually the bare minimum and that the way I was treated isn’t normal. I raised my children with zero role models and honestly that was tough not having anything to draw on.

All this to say: yes it’s often the parents. Very few people believed me when I told them what I went through after I cut them off. People curate appearances very carefully!

I’ve never seen a situation where the parent was blameless. I’m sure it happens but I think it’s quite rare.

Putting aside clear cases of neglect or abuse, I agree it is still rare that any parent is entirely blameless....simply because no parent is perfect. Mine weren’t. Then again, neither was I.

Estrangement can sometimes come from an inability to accept those imperfections, perceiving others parents as perfect (they are not), or from lacking the confidence to disagree with your parents. It is easier to place blame elsewhere than to confront our own shortcoming.

I remember, years ago in my early 20s, being on one of those corporate discover yourself week long residential courses (which I loathe), at one session, one of the counsellors challenged me asking, as an adult, at what point do you stop explaining everything through your parents and take ownership of it. That kind of stuck, and with increasing confidence I was able to recognise my parents were just flawed people like we all are.

I’ve never seen a situation where the parent was blameless. I’m sure it happens but I think it’s quite rare.

I thought it was very interesting, for example, how the author Alice Munro wrote fictional short stories about a daughter who cut off contact with her mother for no reason, and then recently it transpired that Munro turned a blind eye to her own daughter’s childhood sexual abuse IRL. Narcissists are blind to reality.

I think this post puts it well.

I need more options because I don’t speak to my mum. She thinks nothing is her fault!!

I wouldn’t jump to a conclusion either way. If it was parents poor behaviour it’s also not something I’d guard with suspicion.

People (kids and adults) have very complex relationships and because they treat each other a certain way doesn’t mean they’ll treat each other in the same manner. Therefore if a parent fell out with their kid I would think “complex and back story. Nothing to do with me”.

I'd be more likely to think the parents were responsible because I think it should take a LOT before a parent chooses to become estranged from their own child. The power dynamic is different for one thing - parents can do so much more damage to their children than vice versa. So I think it's much more likely that an adult child would have cut off their parents to protect themselves.

Interesting. No I’d never remotely considered this but it could indeed be the case. My mum left him when I was a baby with no warning at all, she gathered our things and went when he was at work. I have asked her why numerous times and she just said she didn’t love him, they were young and she fancied the pants off him but didn’t love him.

He had a breakdown afterwards and refused to see me at all until he had a paternity test. I didn’t know this until my mum told me in my early 20s. My mum never cheated but she said he just totally lost his shit when she left. Anyway, he never told her the results but agreed to start seeing me…

She gritted her teeth lots and never badmouthed him in front of me but it must have been tough. I’ll never forget, for example, when someone at school smashed my new iPod and I called him crying so he just replaced it. My mum was so pissed off, she couldn’t afford things like that at all. So yes, maybe it was through sheer spite. Thanks for this, it’s given me an alternative perspective to consider!

I wouldn't make any judgements either way.

My dad was estranged from his mother because she abandoned him from a young age, dumping him in various children homes, coming back for him and dumping him in a different one, wouldn't let a nice family adopt him when the chance came... When he was adult, she collected him and told him he becomes a nurse, but he wasn't very good and when he quit, she refused to talk to him for over a year ... Even tho they were living together! A whole year of silent treatment!!

So she was the problem.

But my sister is estranged from the family.... And that was her fault. My parents bent over backwards for her. But she just lied about any and everything, had her children taken away from her but told social services all these lies about the family so no one else could foster them. It's to the point that her own children are not estranged from her when they found out their Uncle was actually a really nice person and did not kill their father like she had convinced them🤦‍♀️. After my parents died I made contact and my siblings have gone to accepting her Facebook friend request but that's it.... I found some particularly nasty letters when clearing my parents house so I have completely blocked her and won't have anything to do with her for the rest of our lives.

So.... Parent/child estrangement can be either ones fault.

I think that's fair. One of the more disturbing oddities of Mn, which is full of people who visibly struggle with any kind of normal relationship functioning, whether it's with someone they met on holiday, a sibling, friend or parent, is how many people default to 'Go NC!' after some kind of minor tiff or misunderstanding.

That some people take the nuclear option without any attempt at negotiating a better relationship. It's much less emotionally demanding just to walk away even over something very trivial. I make no judgement here.
Some people have excellent reasons to have very little contact with whoever.

I haven't voted because I don't think it is that straightforward.

I confess that my initial, instinctive reaction, before I had time to consciously think it through ( since my Mother was basically a narcissist), would be to think that almost certainly it is the parent's fault.

But that would be followed up, only seconds later, by the reflection that none of us know what goes on 'behind closed doors', I don't know what the real truth is, and I couldn't then judge.

While I always believe its none of my business, I would generally assume its the parents, and thats likely because I have awful parents who don't really deserve contact, but ultimately it's the kindest thing I can do to maintain something. I know how awful it probably has gotten for someone to take on the guilt and sadness of never seeing their own parents.

Saying that I know of one situation where the adult child is objectively the root cause of an estrangement. In general I try not to judge as I never have all the facts.

I wouldn’t assume either.

I mean I do get the impression sometimes from mumsnet that going NC can be done for the silliest of reasons

but actually a full estrangement is usually due to very complex issues. People shouldn’t be judged for it or have nosey people apportioning blame without knowing anything

I wouldn't think either as both parties can be at fault but if it was both children it would seem more likely to be the parent that has caused the issue.

I do think a new partner of a child can have an impact on estrangement

This is very true. You see all the time on blended family boards how often the subsequent partner genuinely believes they have the right to a fresh slate and calling the shots to their tune, with little respect for the existing dc.