AIBU to think face coverings in public should be banned?

You could do some reading on how the ban on face coverings has been implemented in other countries. Denmark is generally considered to be a progressive country yet they have brought in a ban on face coverings for reasons of cohesion and security.

It would be interesting to find out how they dealt with these sorts of issues.

Agree.

Especually in schools. Even things like branded trainers are banned for being divisive and contributing to bullying, yet overt religious symbols being allowed do exactly the same thing.

There are even reports of kids in Germany being bullied into converting to Islam by other kids in the schools. There are some strands of Islam that promote coercion (the well known concept of ‘jizya’ - a tax imposed on non Muslims to humiliate and impoverish being one example). If people with these views gain power in certain areas, this is what can happen.

While I have every sympathy for your medical condition, there is saying ‘hard cases make bad law’, meaning that fringe or unusual cases are not a good basis for making law and can cause unintended consequences.

Why don’t you look at how medical exemptions for face covering and other similar laws are handled in other countries and maybe you could suggest something that works for you? The blue badge scheme is one example of something reasonably workable.

As pp points out, we shouldn’t be held back from making a law to achieve a specific aim for the good of the majority, in this case to prevent antisocial, criminal or terrorist behaviour and private social cohesion, because it is not wanted by a small minority, however much sympathy we might have towards the situation for that minority.

I'd vote for a ban on total face coverings except on medical or safety grounds. They hamper communication, create division and allow abuse to go unnoticed. They prevent integration into society and can be intimidating.

So niqabs, balaclavas and ski masks would not be OK. Motorcycle helmets would have to be removed if not on a bike.

Medical masks OK where authorised by a doctor - immunosuppressed etc.
Head scarves, kippahs or religious symbol - cross, star of David etc are fine.

Personally I'd ban all religious clothing/symbols in schools. Up to 16, children are just that, and shouldn't be encumbered by religion.

OK, so what's your alternative solution for me?

I’m sorry that you are going through that but unfortunately rules can only ever be based on the most common societal situations, with most laws there will always be individuals who are disadvantaged. Should we not make theft a crime because some people feel they need to steal to eat? Or should we keep theft as a crime and look at other alternatives for people can’t afford food?

I have a facial difference which people often stare at. When it's really cold I often pull my scarf over my face, and find it quite a relief no longer being stared at because the difference is no longer visible. This makes me wonder what it would be like to wear some sort of covering all the time, and to never have people state at my face and make me feel really self conscious about it. Would you ban me from wearing a face covering if I decided I wanted to?

My next door site is full of reports of phone thefts, attacks, robberies, burglaries carried out in broad daylight by young men wearing balaclavas or masks. It is very intimidating. I see these individuals and groups riding around on bikes/scooters, hanging around parks. It is very intimidating. There are no police around anyway. I don't know what the answer is.

I agree. All the people saying masks have always been worn by robbers; yes, but it was a rare sight. Now in London we have groups of teens, all dressed identically and with faces covered, looking for trouble and vulnerable people, obviously to avoid identification. It’s a common sight.

And yes, if niqab isn’t worn due to coercion, it is a sign of religious fundamentalism aka extremism, which is not good news for the cohesion and safety of this country and should be discouraged.

Yes, we always get the kneejerk reactions.

People saying banning face coverings is racist and ablist would be spending their time better to actually read about how it has been implemented in other European countries and even in Muslim countries like Tunisia.

All this medical mask business - ridiculous! If I see someone in such a mask I can still see their face more or less, and I just assume they’re either clinically vulnerable or dreaming of 2020. Or Asian people who -I must congratulate - wear one when they are ill as a courtesy.

TOTALLY different from youths wearing balaclavas or anarchist protestors. They are trying to disguise themselves.

And again, TOTALLY different from women wearing a full covering. I not only see them as a religious fundamentalist with a culture which as a woman I reject, but I worry that the creep of such attire will impact our daughters/granddaughters.

Yes. And it has got to the point where even Middle Eastern countries are warning us about the intentions of some Muslims (emphatically NOT ALL Muslims for the avoidance of doubt among some) who are coming here precisely to exploit our huge tolerance and to allow them to gain political power and increase levels of radicalisation.

The middle class liberals advocating for men to be allowed to continue using face coverings as a tool of oppression of women is mind blowing but sadly not surprising. I’m obviously not saying that all Muslim women with a face coverings are forced to wear them but some clearly are or have been brainwashed into voluntarily doing something that makes life harder for themselves. As a case in point, the so called ‘honour killings’ show the punishment meted out for women who don’t comply.

Well said. It’s heartbreaking that even a conversation about addressing anti social and criminal behaviour attracts ridiculous accusations of ‘racism’ and being ‘ableist’.

These constant and spurious accusations are immature and show limited thinking but are aimed at just shutting down any conversation. They can’t address the arguments so aim to silence us.

We need to focus on our priorities and preserving our values and peaceful society or be changed forever.

Agreed. We make so few demands in this country and instead of being appreciated, minority communities regard our weakness with contempt. Cohesion and security should take priority.

Maybe they simply accept that they are being coerced to do something based on some story made up by a bloke 1500 years ago in order to get land and obtain a better trade route to the Mediterranean. Fine if they want to hold those tales as a personal belief for whatever reason, but if you want to live in a society your primary responsibility is to that society including its cohesion and security.

They're living in a western liberal democracy. Maybe it's time for those communities to ditch traditions that are outdated and inappropriate. As well as France and Austria, Denmark and Belgium have introduced a ban on face coverings.

Also, some Muslum majority countries ban face coverings, for security reasons.

The problem is women who wear head coverings for religious reasons would just be forced indoors, more isolated and unable to work or go out.

A balaclava is different.

You're saying it doesn't work, but it does work. France and Austria have introduced a ban on face coverings and it works.

Completely agree!

The problem isn’t masks - it’s the antisocial behaviour. You tackle that.

It’s far harder to tackle anti social behaviour if you can’t identify or isolate the perpetrators.

And obviously let’s enable the oppression of women by men who live in cultures that say it’s ok to sexually assault ‘immodest’ women.

You are suggesting the equivalent of the police walking round and checking someone had a defined or proscribed medical condition before they are allowed to use a wheelchair or cane and then confiscating that wheelchair or cane because the person can’t prove on the spot with paperwork or the condition they are using it for isn’t “on the list”.

Honestly, you are just making stuff up now. Have a look at how it works in other countries and take it from there.

See - you still don’t understand. The difference with the blue badge scheme is that not parking in a blue badge bay doesn’t directly affect your health and isn’t policed. Sure you may get a fine from a traffic warden if you use it wrong. It’s not even enforced in most places. Sure being able to open your car door and be closer to the building is very helpful.

You are suggesting the equivalent of the police walking round and checking someone had a defined or proscribed medical condition before they are allowed to use a wheelchair or cane and then confiscating that wheelchair or cane because the person can’t prove on the spot with paperwork or the condition they are using it for isn’t “on the list”.

Thats what you don’t understand. And why you shouldn’t have a say in what happens.

If you want to remove the bad behaviour- deal with the behaviour.

Plus there are people out there who would benefit from the blue badge scheme but aren’t entitled to use it. That doesn’t work for them or help them. It is not fair to take a personal protection away. How long would the application take? In the meantime do you just have to stay at home?

I am not getting confused - this whole post is about banning face coverings. I’m telling you a medical exemption won’t work because of all the reasons mentioned it won’t be fair or reasonable.
I know plenty who mask who don’t even have a medical condition that would likely be covered. They just value their health.

If you want to protect disabled people from antisocial behaviour and gangs roaming around towns. Then deal with that. Banning a far covering won’t stop that. You are more likely to hurt a disabled person than someone in the gang.

The problem isn’t masks - it’s the antisocial behaviour. You tackle that. You put the money, resources and all the think tanks into tackling that. Not creating admin and special documents and laws that won’t even help because the people committing crimes, who you want to stop, don’t care about following the law - or they wouldn’t be shoplifting, or terrorising people.

I think you might benefit from some further reflection on your stance. It’s okay that you don’t understand. You are oversimplifying the “medical exemption” idea without real understanding of what that means.

And if you stop religious women wearing niqabs, they might not be able to leave their houses.

If that happens then I think the solution is education of the community to reinforce that it is a) not a religious requirement and b) not compatible with British/Western values.

We should not be condoning general use of this tool of oppression that is used against millions of women across the world to isolate and restrict them. I am quite amazing at how many will support the use of face coverings despite them being used to oppress women because they think they are being ‘kind’.

If a person is utterly desperate to wear face coverings, there are a number of countries where it is allowed. Mandatory even. As I said before it has been decreed that Afghan women are only allowed to see out of one eye in public.

Burqas have also been used to enable terrorist and other criminal activity. Allowing them to become more widespread will only create further opportunities for criminals.

Who decides what’s valid? Which conditions are valid. How far is that validation? Can I wear one to protect the person I love or care for or only if I have the condition.

Are you aware if how this type of law is made? There are public consultations and focus groups and lots of work with lawyers and other experts.

How does the Blue Badge scheme work? That’s sounds fairly equivalent.

Even if I have no medical condition I should be able to choose to protect my future health.

I don’t really understand this point but you ‘protecting your future health’ shouldn’t preclude a law intended to reduce anti social and criminal behaviour.

I’m not saying police are oppressors, I’m saying people like you making decisions for society that you can’t comprehend the ramifications for others are the oppressor.

I’m the oppressor for wanting to talk about how to reduce anti social and criminal behaviour for the benefit and safety of all of society? Especially vulnerable people like the disabled who may be disproportionately affected if hordes of marauding youths are allowed to cause havoc in town and city centres with a greater level of impunity because it’s far harder to identify and prosecute. I’m not making decisions for society (although funny that you think I am so empowered), I am making suggestions to help improve things.

I think you might benefit from some further reflection on your stance.

I’m saying a medical exemption WONT WORK.

Apparently the Blue Badge parking scheme is just a figment of my imagination but ok. We still need to look at banning face coverings in general as they are contributing to criminal and terrorist behaviour. How do you want to be accommodated for your medical needs?

no where I know of bans a medical face mask. In fact places like Japan and South Korea many many more people wear a mask in public precisely because of understanding and mutual respect.

I think you are getting confused. You are the only one saying medical exemptions won’t work. No one here has proposed to ban medical face masks.