But it is the same premise. You’re arguing women should go for smear tests even though there is a small risk their HCP may be a TIM. By that logic, TIM should use male spaces as their risk of being assaulted is also small.

ah the “never happens!” War cry! Bazinga!

I am not discussing what spaces I think TIM should use. I am mostly discussing the risk of a HCP being trans.

That's never happened.

It happens far more frequently than trans men having babies while still on testosterone

Women with these conditions have babies while on potentially harmful medication all the time.

You keep speaking as if everyone views a trans HCP the same as you. They pointedly do not. That is what makes it subjective.

What is a lot more objective is the number of trans HCPs.

except that when they lie about men having babies and then try and change the wording about medical requirements that affects other people.

Bipolar, psychosis and many other conditions have been around for centuries. Shall we just let people get on with it or should we recognise it as a MH issue and do our best to treat it?

Oh hadn’t realised Cecilia was in agreement the trans delusion does = mentally ill

Natal sex defines sex. Gender is a social construct that isn’t generally medically relevant.

The very fact that people are expected to ‘believe’ that gender overrides sex implies a level of faith. The trans rights movement is vile and misogynistic (have you seen some of the placards they wave) which actually shows that they have very male characteristics ironically and want to keep women where they belong

Nobody is told to ‘believe’ that natal sex defines sex because, you know, it does.

Just because some people choose to claim they are a different sex, it doesn’t mean we need to go along with it.

And anyone who genuinely had gender dysphoria should be treated for that , as with every other mental health issue.

On the plus side, all the absolutely shit (including rape and death threats) that JKR gets for daring not to go along with the delusions has led me to discover Harry Potter 🤷‍♀️

Well, yes. Who wouldn't?

@Darker lots of mental health issues have existed for many years, do we just support everyone in their delusions then?

These discussions - which have the potential to be illuminating - always fall apart for the simple reason that one group of participants are coming from the position that some people are authentically transgender (‘trans women are women’) while the other group are working from a completely different premise (natal sex defines gender and ‘trans women are men’).

Hopefully one day we’ll understand more about what is happening when people feel that their natal sex does not reflect their gender. It’s been a recognised phenomenon for thousands of years and happens to a small - but not minuscule - minority, in diverse cultures all over the world. And I hope that when we understand it, we’ll navigate these difficult issues in a more satisfactory way.

And that’s fine because they accommodate you and im
sure there are legitimate reasons and I know there are shocking statistics about how Black women are mistreated, particularly in pregnancy.

Forget how rare/unlikely something is for a minute and think of a hypothetical.

Imagine you request a Black female HCP. You are told it’s no problem, they can accommodate that.

Along comes a woman in Blackface. Would you accept that or would you refuse as you have asked for a Black HCR for a reason. Because as long as they pretend they are something, then it becomes fact, right?

And however unlikely, if it happens then it’s fine, right?

They are not men. Men don't give birth. Maybe in future they will be able to. But the proceses sounds horrific.

Don’t males with a trans identity claim they need to use female spaces in case a man attacks them? There have been zero attacks on TIM in the uk in male facilities. By your logic, they should all use male spaces as the risk of attack is so tiny.

And if you don’t get them? But they refute that and tell you you are wrong they are that demographic, you’ll be fine won’t you?

So yeah women don't matter because you've got men to consider, I heard you the first time.

Honestly,
"Whether or not it should be a risk is subjective based on people's personal views on the topic of trans people"

Uh-huh. "It" being women being who ask for single sex intimate healthcare being uncertain if the HCP that will show up will be a trans identifying male. "It" being women's access to single sex health care. Oh yeah! Super subjective stuff, it only effects 51% of the population.

Also "The risk is tiny! Tiny risk! Risky no likely!" on repeat is childish, you are clearly intelligent so you are deliberately being obtuse.

It's not difficult to get, so once more and just for you, nice and loud from the diaphragm:

It doesn't matter how small the risk is. It shouldn't be a risk at all!

Then you have inferred wrong. I request HCPs of specific demographics, myself.

It's much higher than the chance of the nurse in your smear on Tuesday being a trans woman. I know mine is zero (literally have a smear on Tuesday) because the nurse has been at my GP for a few years and did the last one. Even if she is off sick and covered, the chances of that cover being a trans woman is also tiny. I shall report back.

Same goes for you. Whether or not it should be a risk is subjective based on people's personal views on the topic of trans people. That is why I said "perhaps". Whatever our personal opinions are on it, they are just opinions. Some more informed than others (on both sides).

What is also true is that the risk of the nurse you encounter in a smear on Tuesday being a trans woman is tiny.

It’s a bit like the car seat belt isn’t it? The likelihood you’ll end up in a collision every time you’re in a vehicle is probably tiny, but am sure most people still out their seatbelt on.

Reread what you responded to, I covered that it might be that you just don't want a trans HCP:

"I don't want a male and/or trans identifying male"

But you are so insistent in also telling me your personal views on trans people, you don't register that at all.

You say that like it’s a bad thing, but I have inferred from your posts that you think women shouldn’t be able to say no to having a male tr treat her without her consent?