To think that if you’re prepared to travel to an IVF clinic outside the UK in a country where fertility treatment is not as tightly regulated as here then you need to accept the risks?

So if this had happened in a UK clinic, you'd feel bad for them, but because it happened abroad, you don't, basically?

That makes no sense to me.

I feel really sorry for them, and for people in the UK who've had clinics make mistakes.

My son/DIL were considering N Cyprus if their latest round of UK IVF was not successful (4th). It's a no no now. So sad for them.

I'm more concerned with the lack of of regulation in other countries in regards to multiple embryo transfers and disregarding factors such as age creating very high risk pregnancies.

However I do think that IVF provision on the country does push women into finding alternatives.

Its worth also saying that it's impacted by a time race too. And obviously being aware you can't blow through all your money, take on loans etc if you are about to go on mat leave!

Couples are often scrambling for waiting lists of donors (eggs), saving, losing weight etc, trying for the pre requisite time, against the deadlines.

For example my clinic in the uk was reluctant over 37 (and massively ramped the costs up over 37)

I got married at 30, spent two years getting in the right shape and saving and was already beginning to worry about being unable to concieve a sibling. 33(to try needing poss a few cycles), 34 lost in pregnancy, 35- mat leave, 36 to re- enter the process perilously close to 37 where the costs ramped up.

All while being told frequently the longer I waited the less my chances were and the longer it was likely to take ironically. Fertility services really push the impact of delays. It felt like they were screaming about my declining egg quality

If I was saving for a kitchen I wouldn't have been so worried about the speed, and been less likely to try and cut costs.

My nhs trust would offer one cycle if you were under 35 only (which is true for many trusts!). So say you get married at the uk average of 30, do your two years of trying, get told you need to have lost weight or spent longer with not drinking, spend a year waiting for all the referrals to go through etc. I know several people that got aged out of nhs help very easily

We have spent much more than that on IVF. It hasn't been easy. We have sacrificed so much, have a smaller house, older cars, fewer holidays, make savings on lots of things, don't wear makeup, get hair cut twice a year, hardly buy new clothes, miss lots of social events, still paying off debts before going again. Just because people spend the money doesn't mean they have it easily available.

Cost massively
But also they are more willing to take on things like high bmi, amh scores etc. Lots of the lower cost clinics in the uk have very strict criteria, but even when you're paying the full whack then they are still selective.

They also have much higher success rates. For us they had more interest in trying different things. For us we only have the money for a select number of rounds so the poor success rates of uk weighed heavily

Lots of the people I know that went abroad went for egg donation which has lengthy lists in the uk and not much choice

We had some bad experiences with uk clinics losing paperwork, missing appts and generally poor care. They were very "this is the protocol" sorry if it doesn't fit but we've started it so we will finish which is tricky when its tens of thousands of pounds

The big few for tourism were cyprus, Spain, Portugal, Czech republic.

North cyprus is attractive to lesbian couples because theres a surprising amount of countries eg Germany, Italy, Czech republic don't allow same sex couples. Lots of same sex couples/single females/ people who don't meet their countries criteria seek outwards

In general people look for transport links, one who allow you to use uk things for scans, and affordability.

For me we were weighing up waiting to meet the criteria for affordable ivf and the impact that has on fertility, or going abroad, and paying more for poorer care and less likely for success

Because it’s cheap and unregulated.

And I hold the parents entirely responsible. They are creating human beings, not getting their teeth done. If they can’t afford donor conception IVF properly which is done in the best interests of the children they create, they shouldn’t be doing it at all.

Awful thing to happen.

What is the attraction to Northern Cyprus in particular for fertility treatment? Surely cost must be a factor but surely other countries must also be more affordable.

I remember reading that Northen Cyprus is one of the few places that do gender selection, but I didn't see that mentioned in the report.

I think you should be able to expect to get what you pay for no matter what country you are in.

Well, you know how. They were probably struggling for money.

And I really do not feel very hopeful about the UK. Yes, there's regulation, but clinics need to abide by it much, much more carefully.

And, I do not think it is fair to blame these women. I doubt they thought 'ooh, let's do something risky and see if it works'.

Of course they potentially could but there is regulation in the U.K. Cyprus is just a cowboy place. Listen to the podcast. How can you conceive a child in a place that has so little care?

Is there any science to show that children born by ivf are at great risk than, say, children born into poverty? Or children born to teenage mothers? Or children born to those with poor mental health etc? What are they at risk of exactly?

That's assuming these were both legit donors.

I would be very nervous about that, if it were me. If the clinic has fucked up, who knows what happened?

Are these men not screened before donating their sperm? Surely both donors would have undergone similar tests, so health wise, either both are inherently risky or not?

It’s not like one sperm was from the husband and one was a donor. Both are donor

That’s the same for any medical treatment abroad. But I get their decision. If you are desperate to be a parent and cannot afford the UK then overseas is your next best option.

These parents are absolutely desperate for a baby. They want a baby more than anything. It’s cruel saying they have to accept the risks. It might be their only route to have a baby.

But it's not just about them. The baby won't always be a baby. They have to consider the potential impact on the child.

I googled sperm donation in northern Cyprus and it states that is it fully anonymous, details are never provided to the child.

@NiftyJadeSheep its not all about the parents, child should come first.

They are annoyed because the two children aren't related to each other.

These parents are absolutely desperate for a baby. They want a baby more than anything. It’s cruel saying they have to accept the risks. It might be their only route to have a baby. It’s not a moral conscious thing - it’s painfully heartbreaking . And mistakes have also happened in England

I cross posted too!

I mean, this sort of mistake could happen in the UK too. I hope to goodness it wouldn't, and I haven't heard of exactly this error, but clinics mixing up sperm, eggs, embryos and genetic parents is a known issue. Clinics in the UK ought to be careful, but plainly, they are not careful enough.

But how would it have made a difference in this case?

Correct me if I'm wrong, but all we know is that the donor was anonymous - which is the case for many UK donors; as a parent you can't waive that anonymity (except, as I understanding it, with enormous amounts of paperwork and special circumstances, eg., serious illness) until your child is of age.

This sort of mistake could happen in a UK clinic. The issue isn't that the donor(s) were anonymous to the parents at time of donation. The issue is that the clinic used the wrong donor sperm and didn't admit it.

Cross posted @SarahAndQuack - what do you mean?

Full disclosure: I have a donor conceived child born from a U.K. registered sperm donor. I am absolutely passionate about children being able to access information about their donors.

I wish I could share your optimism about UK clinics.

For the children, it matters enormously. It’s why the U.K. changed the law in 2005 to ban anonymous donation.

Listening to File on Four, it feels like the mothers hung their children’s identity around their presumed father’s identity. As their children have different mothers, the ‘dad’ being Danish and their shared parent was really important. But neither child’s dad was Danish nor was he the same person.

it seems like it was more about them being fair in who carried the babies than ensuring their children were related. If they’d had donor conceived IVF in the uk, this would have happened

This is just turkey teeth or Brazilian butt lifts but throwing other people into the mix.

If you’re bringing new people into the world, don’t go cheap. Rules and regulations are there for a reason. Their poor kids.