To think we need a "label' in addition to SEND?

@Pistachiocake
Some of the highest achievers actually credit "bad parenting" with helping them achieve success, because they learned early they had to push themselves as no one else would

Random people in the street that suffered due to parental neglect and other forms of poor parenting, aren't usually invited to high circulation interviews to share their experiences, but teachers, social services, and the CPS can tell you what they see say in day out. The few success stories that you may read that cite their dysfunctional upbringing as the driver for their success don't discount the overwhelming majority that suffered emotionally and academically due to neglect.

There's a thread at the moment about 80's childhood, and for sure kids were neglected. But it seems to have been benign neglect, rather than utter failure to attempt to raise a child to adulthood

Completely agree with the OP

Nephew is diagnosed as autistic, ADHD and PDA.

It's like lord of the flies at my brother's house (his father). The child rulea the roost. Has every console going, sleeps never, games all night, eats utter junk.

No boundaries, expectations or consequences, ever.

And they wonder why they have a problematic child!!!!

DD1 struggled to go to nursery, we held firm and did all the tricks and listened to conventional wisdom to get her in. And nursery swore blind she was fine there and she was happy…. Oh but she doesn’t really talk and has no friends. Meanwhile every day we were dealing with screaming meltdowns after pick up and it was hideous trying to get her dressed and keep her clothes on the get her out the door. And then by 3.5 after only two academic years she was so broken we couldn’t do it anymore. She was naked because she couldn’t stand the feeling of any clothes on her skin and screaming at every little thing and pulling her own hair out. By 3.5 years old.

So even years on we don’t force her to be dropped off, it’s not worth going back there. She’s on older and could get a lot more creative about hurting herself.

I don’t know why she’s so anxious, there’s autism but she’s not the only one and the anxiety is so extreme in her.

I’m very aware that to some people we look like wet lettuce parents but none of them will have to deal with the fall out of the affect of “tough love” on her.

I know there were kids like her when I was a child, I remember meeting one and being incredulous at the reason his mum removed him from school but if you asked DD about leaving nursery it would sound just as flippant. I think the numbers have increased as life and school has changed, people who just about coped and just really hated school I think would be much less likely to cope these days.

Meh, that should say 'perpetuated', not 'perpetrated'. Autocorrect.

Do you know that some of these 'fine' children actually aren't fine? We did all sorts with DD3. The teacher made a 'smiley DD3' chart, so that she was rewarded every time she came into class without tears. I would carry her into school with her socks and shoes in my hands because I hadn't been able to get them on her. She developed a hand washing obsession after a Year R 'germ busters' topic. We had reward charts in year 2 because she still couldn't go into school well. In fact, in year 3 or 4, I took her to school on Christmas jumper day, handed the Head Teacher a bag and said 'She couldn't decide between jumper A and jumper B. There's some tinsel in the bag. She hasn't had breakfast and her hair isn't done, but she's on time.' I had spent the entire morning just trying to get her to the point that we could leave the house. The wonderful, firm but kind HT phoned and left a message an hour later to say "She's wearing the silver jumper, her hair is up, and we've snuck into the kitchen and cook has given us a couple of chocolate brownies. Well done Mum, you did exactly the right thing.'

She was much later diagnosed with ASD, ADHD, OCD and PTSD (from secondary school experiences). All that time that she was 'fine' except she wasn't. She's now in a special school despite being a grade 9 student.

DD2 was 'fine' and I was just anxious. No, she has ASD and is now in special school.

Hey, even DD1 was 'fine' and I was just a neurotic first time mum. No, she has a brain malformation, ASD, and learning disabilities.

But you tried. I’m not talking about people like you. I’m referring to people who don’t even have a single children’s book in their home. And yes, they do exist - I’ve worked for the NHS in a team that carry out home visits to families, and they’ve seen this firsthand. They just don’t see the point in trying to read their child/ren.

There are some children who manage despite, or even because, of bad parenting. Some of the highest achievers actually credit "bad parenting" with helping them achieve success, because they learned early they had to push themselves as no one else would.
So while what you say is no doubt true, bad parenting doesn't affect all children in the same way, just as some of us cope fine when we don't sleep well, some can't function the next day.
I also worry it could cause other issues-remember how autistic children were once said to have "refrigerator" mothers-and their condition was blamed on the parent?

Neglected has been around a lot longer than SEN/SEND

but why oh why are people obsessed with putting labels on everyone and pigeon holing them. Drives me nutty

I trust that you are aware of the deficits with the Dedicated Schools Grant? And the High Needs Stability Grant introduced last month to combat these deficits?

And the resulting complete revamp of how complex needs are assessed and supported - now with 'universal' (adaptive teaching), 'targeted' support (small catch up groups of 5 led by a TA), and 'targeted plus' (pupils with complex needs attend mainstream lessons and additionally spends an hour in an 'inclusion base' within the school with an ED or SLT).

From Sep 2028, every school will have to have an Inclusion Base - which should cost less than £100k per pupil to run, which is often the annual cost of independent special schooling.

The new tiers of support are: universal (zero cost), targeted (zero cost - TA is internal resource), and targeted plus (lower cost than independent special school).

So, regarding adding new labels for ADHD adjecent presentation such as Digital onset ADHD from early smartphone adoption reducing ability to focus or sit still, and Focus Deficit, etc.: all fine if it adds no cost and plonks these kids in the 'universal' or 'targeted' support tiers and costs nothing.

It's all an exercise in fiscal containment.

My middle child wouldn’t let me read to him. He hated it. If I sat him on my knee for a story he’d just jump off and run away. His brother and sister loved stories and grew up to be voracious readers. Our house is like a library, and they always had access to hundreds of books.

And no, I don’t have a cognitive disability myself. My DS was just impossible to read to.

Its neglect. However is the toothbrush definitely true?
Some parents wont push kids who refuse so i guess i couod see some not having a toothbrush as kid wont brush anyway.

But imo a lot does tie into working ckass/state school permissive parenting.

-When dc1 was 4 we walked past a kid in class house and they at 4 had been left home alone by dad who had popped to the shop with younger sibling. The shoo was a 5 min walk.

• One kid we know hac a motorbike at 7-8 and would ride it on pavements to the park

But im not sure this is all the parents age 30-50 fault. A lot of behaviour issues are rooted in how my generation were parented. But also it wasnt ours who decided against the stricted punishments at home or school. It isnt surprising many oarents are ineffectual and intentionally soft on their kids.

Some stricted targets on potty training generally before 3 would help. Also that may highlight the sen kids who do tend to train later.

A lot of kids anxiety does seem to have been triggered by the covid time.

Allllll this ! So much of a narrative of current parenting is giving children choices and listening to their voice etc. Which on paper is lovely but children need security and boundaries and dont want to always choose. As a teacher we have children coming to nursery and parents who won't just support their child to just come in . Instead will leave or not turn up because child doesn't want to come. These children are always completely fine once in the door but we are the worst in the world if we suggest the child just comes in. This is apparently exacerbating anxiety and schoool based avoidance. These are 3/4 year olds. Honestly 99.9% of the time they are fine once reassured and really enjoy their day. Parents need to remove some of these choices and be in charge sometimes.

We can agree to disagree - I respect the empathy you have.

You can see it everywhere and it is easy to understand. The social science research is extensive. We can all understand it. Every single person who can read can read the research.

Humans are human is the reason.

Most parents do their best. Their best may not be good enough, or may be dysfunctional, but the majority of parents don't want to be bad parents.

If a parent had a poor education, then they won't feel that they are in a strong position to help their child.

None of this is helped by people making them feel inadequate.

All 3 of my girls have SEND. 2 of them weren't properly diagnosed until secondary school (both now go to a special school). I remember vividly listening to a parent say 'Would you like to go to the library on the way home to choose a new book?', as her beautifully presented, complaint children trotted along beside her. I was just praying that I could get my children to the car safely.

We don't need more labels. We need more understanding.

I do not understand why parents do not read to their young children in 2026, no. And I say this with 2 disabled children, one with a learning disability. The only excuse is primary parent having a cognitive disability themselves.

Parents don’t have a guidebook on how to deal with anxiety.

some of this is neglect - the toothbrushing thing has been around for decades now and is largely pervasive and known about in society,

the level of anxiety in kids is not, and there is very little support out there for parents of kids who say they are anxious. What are you supposed to do? Nobody knows.

Well done for breaking the cycle. But you know that it isn't easy to do.

So you do understand why people don't do it.

I’m not naive. I grew up with an alcoholic parent who was in and out of prison, and I experienced abuse and neglect as a child. Despite that, I chose to do better for my own children.
I didn’t say the parent couldn’t read; I said they choose not to read to their child.

I think schools do what they can tbh, but as a society we do underestimate the impact of things like generational trauma, poverty, health inequalities, where you live, access to green spaces, other ACES, and so on. Not everything is shit parenting. There are genuinely shit parents ofc, but a lot of issues stem from general societal problems and those aren't easy things to solve.

Had yet another discussion about how exam anxiety is a normal emotion and chatting about ways to deal with it Surely that's a normal part of your job?!

Inappropriately hugged a boy that I'm unbelievably proud of because he's trying to give up energy drinks and is down to 2 a day Why are you hugging anyone "inappropriately?

They didn't choose their parents or upbringing no but you want to label them/single them out for some reason.

Only have to read MN every day to see how some parents are parenting its shocking.

Most just use the word he or she i or them have SEN of somesort.
Like its a get out of parenting card, their be saying their pets have SEN next.

Sorry my dog bit your leg he has SEN.
You are right op to many use a lable now.

There’s a plethora of support services for parents who for whatever reason can’t/don’t parent. From parenting classes for different ages, stages and needs of children through to intensive family support services that go in and literally parent alongside the parents. It’s not that services don’t exist it’s that they’re so under resourced only the most challenging situations reach the threshold of involvement. Add to that parents who don’t engage, because they don’t need parenting support, the parenting classes aren’t great (true in some cases), or they can’t attend due to work or caring commitments (also true in some cases) I’m not sure what would fill that gap.

The reality is it’s very hard to make a material difference to children if parents are still not parenting, and it’s nearly impossible to persuade parents they need to change.

Cutely naive.

How do you do the reading if you struggle to read yourself? Or you work nights? Or you're low level drunk? Or you have mental health issues?

'Accountability' just means 'pretend no one has persistent problems'.