To think we need a "label' in addition to SEND?

@ParentsToBlame I do get it. A child who is not fed correctly (just sugar) and doesn't go to bed at an age appropriate time will show all the signs of ADHD.

My very well looked after 8 year old has 'SEMH' needs. His social, emotional and mental health difficulties stem from his autism and the anxiety he feels around school, due to his autism.

I dont agree the vast majority are due to poor parenting. I would say some are.

There were lots of factors I highlighted that account for the higher numbers of sen in the uk compare to other european countires, that were not to do with parents at all

I don't see how it would be helpful to the children or how it would result in them receiving extra support considering it would currently fall under SEND anyway. Just sounds like something to judge and shame parents which isn't going to help anyone, especially considering the blame culture when children do actually have SEND.

So you agree that the vast majority of SEND cases are due to poor parenting.

That means we should be doing far more to treat the causes rather than the symptoms otherwise things will never improve.

Encouraging inadequate parents to have more children while at the same time pricing out many competent parents from having a similar number was always going to end in disaster for society.

You’re supposed to give them easily attainable small challenges to increase their bravery and therefore confidence.

People dont measure it in the same way.
You dont need a 'genuine case'. Its not a diagnosis. Is an education term used in this country to identify children that need help. Children with poor parents need educational help.

In England, if a chilld needs extra support over and above the ordinary offer they have send.

Many countries dont measure that. They just measure diagnosed disability.

Other countries have also have such a different ordinary offer. Smaller classes, starring formal school later, less external high stakes testing, different curriculum and so on.

(Also some countries have worse outcomes)

We seriously confuse needs & wants in the uk, especially with regard to children in educational settings.

The amount of children in the UK supposedly having SEND needs is absurd.

By way of example it is at least 6 times higher than other comparable western European countries such as France and Spain and nearly 20 times higher than countries such as Sweden.

The UK is such an outlier it is reasonable to believe the numbers are massively overstated. Of course there are a number of genuine cases, quite likely a similar proportion to other comparable countries, however the vast majority are simply the result of poor parenting within a society that promotes an excuse culture.

We have a group called 'the underserved' that we have support in place for at school and track progress, plan learning, use core funding for and do cpd for teachers.

The reason we have this label is the existing labels of sen and pp both attract funding (sen its notional and not ringfenced) and you have to have a strategy in place that is costed and published. There is an overlap with pp /send but they arent all the same group at all. But our school wanted to try think strategically about these pupils too and sort of plan the same way tgey do for sen and pp. Its just broadens the net for us.

Its difficult because the definition of send is needing additional support over an above the ordinary offer and its very much an education term. So send should cover what you described. I think you are trying to seperate out the disability from sen for other reasons but I guess in education the need trying to be solved is the education one, however it arises.

Hard agree.

I've taught in primary for 30+ years.

More parents now than ever before are incapable of parenting, or just can't be bothered to do the hard stuff like teach their child.

E.g. I had a parent in last week who was happy with their 5 year old child using their hands to eat at home, as it meant the floor and sofa didn't get dirty. Unsurprisingly the child got the food everywhere using cutlery - maybe that's because you didn't teach them to do so when they were 1?

Setting boundaries and sticking to them is seen as a bad thing to more parents than before.

And the phrase "what my child needs is..." . It should be "what you've enabled this child to demand that you now see as reasonable is..."

This really.

I remember reading an autobiography of a GP who said that a lot of people, mainly women, would come in with symptoms of depression and he called it "shit life syndrome". Obviously he couldn't say this to the patients but he said some people had depression with no reason but there were people who were depressed because their life was just miserable.

I don't know how it could be done diplomatically but maybe shit life syndrome ought to be a thing you can be diagnosed with, for adults and children.

Schools do provide support to all children regardless of SEND or not. The thing that limits the amount they can provide isn't the lack of a label. Most children with SEND don't have an EHCP or funding for extra support.

Because I have always lived in predominantly poorer areas and in social housing when I’ve seen children neglected it’s always been a few certain families that are absolutely in the cycle of poverty going back generations. Lots of families live like the ones on shameless/Jeremy Kyle. The way to end negligence in these homes is through educating parents, I know kids whose parents don’t provide toothbrushes or soap and have 7/8 kids, some in foster care now. Those kids don’t attend schools due to parents being too lazy to walk and they’re now “homeschooling”, but social services are involved. The importance of education on hygiene, food, education and social interaction and life skills/experience are met with ridicule. These parents are in active addiction often, my parents both were, and the kids grow up thinking this life is normal and it’s all most will achieve. I think those kids need support workers because their parents won’t do the basics and we know social services red tape won’t remove kids for not having toothbrushes or even in the cases of families I know, having suitable beds and filthy hoarder type homes.
The reality is social services are stretched, at least in my LA they are, they’d rather that children who are at risk of being abused or are being abused or living in DV homes or ones with parents addicted to heroin or crack are given priority over the kids who might go hungry or not have a mattress but aren't at imminent risk of being harmed are dealt with first.
I can’t comment on the type of negligence that occurs in more typically Mumsnet communities where people are seen more as permissive parents as opposed to negligent, but Im sure there are 1000s of families who aren’t poverty stricken and permanently unemployed who still don’t meet the basic needs of parenting. Those ones are almost harder to tackle Im sure. I think that’s why the recent case of Constance Marten was so shocking, we don’t expect wealthy parents to lose custody of their children do we?
It’s so sad how many kids failed, but I think back to the 4 girls in my class who had their babies under 16 and were completely neglected themselves it’s not a shock really, kids have been let down forever.

This is very insightful in my opinion. The issues that arise are often at the intersection of SEND, modern society, poverty and suboptimal parenting. Parenting a child with ADHD with no diagnosis or support in a world filled with screens is actually difficult, for example. Society is very quick to blame parenting, specifically mothers, for just about everything. Often parents who do eventually receive support for what turns out to be underlying SEND-related issues will have had to jump through hoops related to their parenting, like attending parenting courses. It doesn't surprise me that all parents can't jump through those hoops to access the inadequate support that exists, and that those parents end up being judged and blamed for everything by schools, perhaps especially when those parents are working class. Someone with ADHD that's unsupported could easily end up having late bedtimes, being anxious and addicted to caffeine in Monster because those are all basically hallmarks of the condition. It really helps if people can approach things with curiosity instead of judgment.

I have a friend who works in SEND. They have these ‘labels’
the child is not aware, neither would anyone else not directly involved.

the example of the trainers and no toothbrush is called ‘affluent neglect’

The neglect wasn't benign at all for a very large number of kids. Calling it 'benign neglect' is just dismissing the reality.

It is absolutely not as simple as 'they just don't see the point'

The research on this is extensive.

Those who work in the NHS/social services in these areas are trained in the realities.

(Incidentally DS1 is AuDHD and just cracks on, loves school, he’s lucky I guess but I also take no shit )

Terrible parenting has reached epidemic levels. Parents aren’t teaching their kids that ‘feeling nervous’ is a completely normal emotion before tests, for example. Kids who have never stepped outside their comfort zone continue to avoid doing so. Parents don’t let their children develop any independence, or experience any mildly perilous situations. ‘Snowplough parenting’ is absolutely the correct term.

I’ve been in meetings with parents asking me to remove children from our school because they (the parents) don’t like them.

10000% but this will be a very unpopular statement. As I said earlier I have happy settled children in front of me once dropped off by the parents..yet I have parents on here suggesting they are not ok..their children went on to have extreme anxiety around school etc.
This is the difficulty we have as teachers. We can only work with the children we have in front of us. If we are not seeing the behaviours parents describe so what can we do ? Assume all children are traumatised by their school experience (because I cheerfully supported them in the door )and are just hiding it well ? Or just get on with the day and assume all is well. I know my class well and as a nursery teacher spend a lot of time talking to them. If they end up with some school based anxiety it hasn't started here. Instead I have supported their confidence and resilience and social skills. I wish these parents would do the same.

I think actually a bit of benign neglect is ok. Too many kids are used to their parents placing them at the heart of everything, meeting their every "need". They are then are surprised when their child can't fit into anywhere.

I didn't say the parents are anxious.

Its more that they are too soft/kind. They validate every emotion but a lot of children's feelings are excessive, disproportionate, selfish, immature etc, part of our role as parents is to not validated them all. We have to help our dc develop a sense of proportion or they wind up afraid of everything. Encourage them to try things they find a bit daunting to allow them to succeed & experience that feeling of having overcome their apprehension.

I have a friend who's dc is currently school refusing, thoroughly enabled by parents. Parent said to me a few months back, quite proudly "DC just doesn't feel safe at school. Its my duty as a parent to protect them from that."

Inside my head I was screaming "No, you should be reassuring your child that their leafy school is in Berkshire not Palestine, and that they do not know they are fucking born, and that your duty as parents is to ensure they receive the education & socialisation they need as adults to live, cope, work & participate in society."

I agree to a point.
new kid started at my child's school, only 9 years old, very rude and disrespectful, been distributing the class for months now, my child tells me they say awful stuff to the girls and are a bully to the boys. Woman walks to the school gates, lashes and fillers, satin PJ's on and arguing on her phone with it on loudspeaker. I knew she'd be the kids mum.

Also a dad swearing at his primary aged son on on the walk to school, telling him his making a prat of himself, calling him a fucking shit and threatening him, the boy is a known troublemaker at school and it's so upsetting seeing glimpses of what this kids life is like, school are aware, social services are aware. Then, you've got the "my kid my rules" parents who contact the school demanding no vegetables at lunch for their kid as it makes em sick and will only eat Nutella's sandwiches, sod all wrong with the kids, just shit parenting.

I have a kid with SEN, also my kid didn't attend school for 9 months due to their mental state so I know how tough it can be, I'm not a perfect mum, I do have morals, values and boundaries though. It's that so many parents really are just neglectful and ignorant, there are many of them sadly.