When does ‘lack of confidence’ cease being an excuse

My mother is the same but she doesn't drink. She constantly complains about how lonely and depressed she is but refuses to do anything to help herself. Any suggestions are shot down with ridiculous excuses. She's only in her early 60s but you'd think she was in her 80s the way she goes on. To be honest I think she wants her kids to be her carers and do everything for her and sit with her all day. But we're all busy with our own families, jobs etc. Selfishly im on my own with 4 kids (1 sen) and I just dont have the capacity to look after her too. Especially when she could help herself in so many ways.

That's not learned helplessness.

Learned helplessness is when you try to escape something and are literally unable to. Then after a while of trying and failing, you learn that trying to help yourself is futile.

Then even if the way out is suddenly very clear, you won't take it because you're conditioned to think helping yourself accomplishes nothing.

Sadly I agree. My MIL was exactly the same. Always had her father to do everything for her until she married, then her husband did everything for her. Then when her husband died, my DH ended up doing everything for her. The thing was she was actually pretty intelligent, but had just got into the "little woman" habit where she always had a man doing everything for her. I think she thrived on the attention.

When she "had" to do something, she managed, but she made a massive song and dance about everything, it was just easier for her, firstly, husband, and then, her son, to do it all if she could make them do it. I think also a lot of it was attention seeking.

As for the "learned helplessness", a big yes. She never even learned how to ride a bike, never learned how to swim, never learned to drive a car.

Thankfully, she never went down the alcoholic route, even when at her lowest after her husband died suddenly.

I found it really hard to understand as my own Mum was a self motivated career women, even back in the 50s and 60s, she learned to drive in the 50s before my father, had two different professions after having retrained in the 60s, always worked full time and even had a second job in the evenings, was definitely wearing the trousers in the house as she controlled the finances, decided on big purchases, sourced tradesmen for house repairs, etc. That makes it sound like my father was a wimp, but he really wasn't - he was a manager in his profession, looking after his workplace, recruiting/managing lots of staff, so was happy to leave "the house and family" to his wife, who in turn thrived on being in control of the home and family. I never really identified at all with MIL who didn't seem interested in doing anything beyond cooking and cleaning and didn't even have any hobbies - she often said things like "Fred didn't want more than 2 children", "Fred decided to call him John" etc - clearly dominated by her husband and that never seemed to be a problem for her!

Your last sentence here, plus some of what you’ve shared regarding your attempts to support her, suggests that this is a boundary issue. You’re not responsible for her. You don’t have to struggle. You can live your life according to your own choices, including how much time you spend supporting her. It may be frustrating for you, but it’s up to her how she lives. If she wanted to change, she very likely would.

I would imagine she is overwhelmed. She is used to rightly or wrongly been taken care of all her life and suddenly that rug has been pulled from under her and she is on her own in a very challenging world. Things like online banking are simple for most but not if you have not kept up with technology and you are hearing about scams all the time and do not have the confidence to identify them. Likewise with online shopping etc.

Sadly some people of that generation feel ashamed of mental illness so refuse to do anything about it. I suspect that she is using drink to self medicate.

The reality is she is unlikely to change or have the skills to change.

I’m really sorry you’re in this situation, and wish I had something practical to suggest. Unfortunately some people are just really shit at life - even the most basic, mundane, everyday tasks, are some kind of unconquerable summit or source of massive anxiety. Drinking doesn’t help, although probably makes them feel like it does.

We’re here for a short time and it’s a tragedy some people are unable to make the most of it. I’d just concentrate on living the best life you can, as any change needs to come from your mother.

You're angry she hasn't approached her life the way you've approached yours. Remember you grew up in a different era, a different generation. Plus presumably you are not alcohol dependent?

There is nothing external to her that can make her change.

My Mum is the exact same OP so you have my sympathies.
It is completely frustrating and my patience for it is very very thin atm.

This.

If she's honest about her drinking the GP won't refer her to regular MH talking therapies. Even if she wanted them. They'd refer her to the alcohol service. So ultimately she'd need to want to stop drinking and sort her life out but sadly I don't think she sounds like she's willing to do that.

Quite! I was referring to the 80s however which was a decade later and was trying to highlight that learned helplessness was not indicative of a lack of intelligence - hence 'persona' indicating that it was performance as opposed to 'they weren't able to do it'.

OP my mum is like this but without the drinking. She can only use a mobile phone to make or accept calls. She can’t drive , she can’t text, can’t use an atm machine or pay by card or do online shopping. I blame my dad. My dad who I think was ND was obsessed with refusing to learn new things as “that’s not for them”. The simplest of things was a fucking saga. Also my sister definitely enabled them by doing everything for them. Now my dad is in a nursing home and mums life is miserable. And it’s like the blinkers have only now come off where she sees other women her age living life to the full and being very independent . And just to add mum worked fulltime all her life and was very sociable and outgoing and my dad also worked full time until age 70 so not people locked away from society.

I’m a couple of months off 65 and I am amazed that your mother has never learned to use tech. Has she never had a job? Can she use a smartphone?

Really good answer here @flapjack5

Women weren’t allowed to have any say in financial matters until the mid 1970s. They had to get their father or H’s signature for a bank account or a mortgage. It wasn’t a “persona” it was reality!
It took a while for women and men to get used to the idea of women being involved in these things.

In the 1980s strategic incompetence was desirable for women. Being rubbish with maps, not being able to drive, 'don't ask me about the bills my husband handles all of that' - was all appealing to men and wider society, and en vogue. Intelligent women often adopted this persona.

Over time, this performative femininity can transform into a state of learned helplessness where the brain is no longer able to learn new skills resulting in paralysis when the partner and primary protector passes away.

This impacts the adult children. As opposed to having someone look after your child when you are in a pinch, it's like you having another child to look after as you have to manage their admin, GP & shopping runs, and online tasks - which adds to your workload.

You are not alone in this situation and I feel for you. All you can do is be persistent with your efforts to educate and hold that necessity forces her to take those small initial steps to independence.

I agree with pp who say that you can't expect her to suddenly be able to do things she's never done. But I also agree that you can expect her to learn, with support to do so.

It sounds like you have offered that support to learn. I would say to her, Mum I am happy to teach you to do X, Y, and Z. That offer is open to you any time. I am also happy to make you a GP appointment and attend with you if you wish. If you do these things you can hopefully be much happier. But if you don't want to of course I can't force you. But neither will I continue to do everything for you. It's your choice.

Given the amount of sympathy given to anxious ND teens/ young adults who need massive amounts of support the lack of sympathy for an older lady who has suddenly seen her support network disappear is surprising but indicitive of the ageism on mumsnet.

Of course you don't put your life on hold for her but can you look into what support networks may be available and help her access them, by going with here initially if necessary.

She’s an alcoholic and selfish as most of them are. Your DF was her enabler. She needs to stop drinking but she won’t! There is nothing you can do and you must put yourself first as she chooses to put the alcohol first.

You have my sympathy OP. Doesn’t matter what the causes of someone’s problems are, the frustration for you is the same. There’s the saying “You don’t have to set yourself on fire to keep someone else warm”. Don’t set yourself on fire trying to solve her problems!
You’re not going to change her mindset because she’s a professional victim by now, and if she doesn’t want to / can’t change her behaviour, nothing you can say will persuade her. Don’t waste your time trying. All you can do is decide where your boundaries are and stick to them. Do what you can to help without damaging your life and your family. If she complains, gently point out there are things she could do to help herself if she chose to. Don’t be emotionally blackmailed into doing it for her. Good luck!

My MIL was similar with the learned helpless side and it was a very difficult situation. All of the empathy in the world didn’t change that she was entirely dependent on others for the most basic things for her entire life and she was very manipulative about forcing her needs ahead of other people’s. It is an incredibly complex dynamic because while empathy is always important it is precisely empathy that is weaponised so it is the right combination of empathy and boundaries that are necessary. I think framing boundaries with suggestions to help herself is probably the best you can do.

What @WinterBlues26 said. My mother is the same, and has delegated all engagement with the world, decisions, finances etc to my father since they married in 1970. However, it is absolutely equally his fault. It has never seemed to occur to him to consult her, despite all of their adult children pointing this out repeatedly. He has repeatedly made disastrous decisions that affected us all, but only her since we all left home. They’re both in their eighties, my mum doesn’t use tech and doesn’t even have a mobile, and my father does all the bills, banking etc online and refuses to give any of us log in information etc, even when we point out our mother will be destitute if he dies first.

This. She has clearly been supported by people all her life, even to do what most would think simple tasks. She is not suddenly going to be able to do that just because her support network aren't there to do it. She's allowed to feel lonely, I'm sure she feels incredibly lonely.

My mil is very similar, although in her 70s. She’s almost certainly an undiagnosed autistic person. My daughter is very similar and has a diagnosis. Mil has had years of poor mental health and eating disorders. Although it’s very tough, I think you might need to reframe it in your mind as not just ‘lack of confidence’ but supporting someone with a disability. How far you’re prepared to do that is up to you.