AIBU to discourage uni for daughter, I'm worried about debt without career plan?

Why
like anything else if you want something in life you pay for it it’s not a tax
you want a degree you pay for it

I would stop looking at it as a debt and more as a graduate tax.

I never went to university and I don't regret it. I did an animal care course at my local college for a couple of years, and then ended up joining HMRC at the bottom as an AA and just worked my way up the grades. I'm now an EO in the home office as a decision maker and I'm quite happy, it only took two years to get to EO level once I left HMRC.

God, what are you, the Mumsnet Chatgpt?

Again, if other people's posts aren't to your liking, that's your own problem to deal with.

Instead of 'clogging up the thread' telling people what they 'could have said'.

You could have said the “To discourage her daughter would be to interfere imo, and she could well end up with a daughter who resents her for it, when she looks back.” comment in your first post, that would actually have been some advice for the OP. My point was, all these “none of your business, not your problem, nothing you can do about it” replies to posters looking for advice are just pointless and unhelpful. Why post at all if that’s all you’re going to say? It just clogs up the thread

Are you suggestions other things to her instead that might be of interest?

As someone has said earlier, even without a plan, a degree is always good to have. She won’t be able to access many industries just because of it - and in many occasions, what the specific degree is is not that important, but you won’t get through the door without one. She would be very limited.

If the mother chooses to support her then she's choosing the debt knowingly.

There is nothing unhelpful about pointing out that no matter how much a parent cares for their adult offspring, they are still indeed adults.

To discourage her daughter would be to interfere imo, and she could well end up with a daughter who resents her for it, when she looks back.

If this post (or any other) is not to your liking, that's your own problem to deal with.

Psychology graduates are two-a-penny (sorry), so if she's keen on developing a career in psychology she'll also need to consider the costs of further professional training/education following graduation.

This can be substantial, but could be worthwhile if she's ultimately wanting to work in clinical, forensic, research or educational psychology. But if she's person-focused and academically minded, it could be a perfect choice for her.

All of those routes are (usually) Masters then Doctoral routes, perfect for an academic mind, but she needs a clear financial plan, to be honest. Doctoral routes are also highly competitive, but there's a link below which might help.

https://www.nihr.ac.uk/doctoral-opportunities

She might also consider a career in Public Health, which can pay very well, and also opens the door to working internationally, e.g. UN, WHO etc. Again this is a very long path, but definitely worth considering.

https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/career-planning/study-and-training/graduate-training-opportunities/specialty-training-public-health

This might seem far away - she needs to obtain her degree first! - and ultimately it's up to her of course, but it does no harm for mum to be coaching in the background. I eventually did a doctorate (different subject) and didn't have the advantage of an engaged and interested parent. So, good luck.

I agree with you OP, the amount of graduates with useless degrees, who can’t get a job and are in huge amounts of debt these days is very high. For kids from privileged families, whose parents can afford to pay their tuition fees then uni can be great, they get to have that experience and might end up with a very slight advantage in the job market, but for those who aren’t in a privileged position like that, an Art History or Media degree isn’t going to do shit for their job prospects and just leaves them stressed and in debt. I’d encourage her to do some research on careers she thinks she might enjoy and look into alternative routes into them. She may find something she loves the look of that does require a specific degree, in which case it’d be worth it if it led her directly into that role. You don’t have to go to uni and get into shit loads of debt just for the “love of learning”. If you love learning, there are loads of other ways to learn for free

There was a feature yesterday on SKY News about the huge debt plus interest some graduates have - one girl had £90,000 and a boy - £100,000 (tuition + accommodation) - some had no job after graduating. The interest can be Bank of England rate Plus 3%.

So many of these sorts of unhelpful replies on MN lately. Along the lines of, “your dc is an adult now, not your problem”. These comments are so pointless and unhelpful to the OP. As if a parent stops caring or supporting their kid in any way the day they turn 18 🤣 of course it’s normal for a mother to worry about their child going out into the world as a young adult for the first time, and how they’ll cope, how much debt they’ll have etc. And want to find a way to be supportive. Also if the mum helps her out financially it may well be her debt!

Ex-university lecturer here. I wouldn't discourage but I'd strongly encourage a year or two out if she's at all unsure. Nowadays they get only 4 yrs funding max so they can't get as far as 2nd yr, decide the course isn't for them, or fail due to partying too hard, and then do another degree later without having to pay tuition fees as well as full living expenses for at least one year. I'd talk about uni as a fabulous opportunity she shouldn't squander. I taught many, many who were there mainly because it was the thing you did and who had limited interest in the subject. But those who had made an active choice to be there and engaged well really got something out of it. Psychology is a great all round degree that is interesting and also gives them skills in data analysis, essay & report writing, critical analysis, scientific method etc. Many employers like it for this and it also leads to specific psych careers with further postgrad training. The British Psychological Society (BPS) careers web pages will help with ideas about what she could do with the degree & university webpages have to provide info about employment outcomes for their graduates. All psych degrees include biological psychology if the course is approved by the BPS, and most allow greater specialisation in neuropsychology in 3rd year. Whether she's prepared to research all this is a good test of whether she's ready for the once in a lifetime university opportunity.

Would it be worth going through the money side of things with her, showing her what happens to the loans in terms of interest? And letting her know you basically only get one shot at doing a degree unless the second one is for nhs roles (maybe some teaching too?) so if she choosing something now and is used up the student finance if she wants to do something in the future she may not be able to fund it? And she can go to uni at any age, I did in my mid 30’s.

Well it’s no good basing your advice on an experience years ago, that’s no use to a new student!

It certainly was true when I joined! It was a long time ago. I'm glad to hear that things have changed.

Just to add, if she has all the information and still chooses uni, then be 100% supportive. My view is that it’s our job to give them the tools to make informed decisions, and then it is her choice to make.

I love your mindset but have one caveat. My mum defo took this approach & encouraged us to go, enjoy the experience, study something we loved & worry about a career afterwards. She thought being a graduate of any vaguely academic subject would be a good thing.
I did an arts degree (think English, History etc) at a top uni.

I wish wish wish it had been made clear to me that the “graduate tax” should be taken really seriously. People (teachers, parents, Martin Lewis) brushed it off as “oh you only have to pay back a bit once you earn a certain amount”. £27,000 sounded like a huge sum to my 17 year old brain. I did not think through that those 3 years would cost me dearly for my whole working life.

I had to do a postgraduate course in something that would actually help me get a job, so had to take out a postgrad loan, which means I pay a further 6% on everything over 21k.

overall I pay 15% of my income above min wage to student loans. Plus tax, NI, pension etc. I’ll pay back many times what I borrowed, but never pay it off due to huge interest rates.

with salary bunching, professional careers don’t pay that much more anymore & often don’t even require the degree!

I loved my enriching & stimulating time at university. It broadened my horizons & gave me amazing experiences…but if I could go back I’d never have gone!!! It’s not worth 45 years of going without.

my point being, absolutely encourage DS1 to do that, as long as he is fully aware of the true cost

Going against the grain here (kind of). I don’t think discourage is the right approach, but personally I think supporting and helping her make an informed decision is a good approach. There are so many ways to continue to learn without uni that don’t come with the massive debt - college courses, apprenticeships etc. I never knew what I wanted to do leaving school and tried a number of different things (one year of A levels, then two years of a creative subject, then teaching assistant) then finally accountancy in my mid 20s which has become my career (mid 30s now, AAT qualified, could go into chartered qualifications if I wanted to), so have no education related debt.

I just think uni is pushed so much at schools, it’s important to be informed of other options available and be known that it doesn’t need to be a decision made now. If she spent time doing college course/s first and then decides uni would be the best option, she can do that. A couple of years later is nothing really in the scheme of things.

Basically, I disagree with both extremes of discouraging and staying out of it completely, and think a more balanced approach would be best :)

I am sure that some schools and colleges push uni alone, but ones local to me also encourage and support apprenticeship applications. Social media accounts often highlight successful degree or higher level apprenticeship applications. Just to illustrate how competitive they are a recent post was something like 'Congratulations to Bob who has secured offers for both a degree level apprenticeship with astra zeneca and an offer from Oxford to read ....'
At degree level, they are not easy to secure.

What type of university will she likely have the grades for?
Oxbridge, LSE, Warwick, Leeds, down to about QUB bracket still worth it.
Greenwich, Westminster, MMU level, don't bother.

I do a lot of graduate recruitment; I broadly don't care what the degree is or where they studied, all our recruitment is institution blind. But those who perform strongly on our aptitude tests & on the interview tasks turn out to be people who have gone to long established institutions with high academic standards, and they've really been pushed to develop how they think and how they present their ideas.

Look for courses where she'll have smaller classes, rigorous assessment (not overly weighted to coursework or group projects) and get the opportunity to do some in depth research. I'm frequently amazed by the number of grad candidates I see who can't talk coherently about independent work they've done at university. That is an utter waste of £50k.

I think rather than framing it as encouraging/discouraging uni it is better to have an honest discussion about the pros and cons of different next steps.
Uni could be open/studying at home/moving away to study. There are different courses with different career prospects. It is worth talking through the different options. She wants to go to uni? What are her goals? Can she articulate them even if she doesn't have a specific career in mind?
If you think there are good non-uni options, what are they? Would you encourage her to try and get a low-skilled, temporary job for a year to save and think about next steps? What apprenticeships and longer term jobs are available if she continues to live at home? Are you going to support her to move away for better job and apprenticeship opportunuties? Has she researched what is available. If public transport is limited can she drive?
High quality job and apprenticeships (including level 3 and 4 ones) suitable for 18 year olds are competitive to get and opportunities vary by area. I think there a definite advantages to some young people to taking this path (as well as disadvantages), but it is not like applying for uni. They are jobs with training and you have to apply to ones in your locality or where you are able to move to. Where I am the vast majority of openings are dental nursing and early years childcare. Many are inacessible without a car. Other options come up, by they are sporadic. It is likely you will need to move if you are targeting a specific role.
I would also consider how it will impact your relationship if after a discussion of the different options your daughter would like to go and you don't support her choice. You went - I know the financial model was different then. How is she going to feel knowing you had an opportunity that you don't support for her?

If you don't know how student loans work then you shouldn't be commenting.

They are a rip-off and no-one should go to uni unless it is for a vocational degree.

Psychology is a good degree of employment options though. It leads to well to HR careers, good for many management roles, for joining the police etc.

It’s not a degree I would overly worry she’s not got a career path decided yet, because it’s a degree that could lend itself well to a selection of roles.

I have one graduate child who is in a graduate job and another at uni. They only care about the net salary part. The same with their friends. It doesn't matter about the pay rises and how much more is going to student loans, they only care what the number is that is transferred into their bank account.

I don't think you have to have your life mapped out at 18. Our eldest always knew exactly what he wanted to do and that is now his reality. Our youngest just loves a subject, all of it, has no idea what career path they will take with it but it is a very high ranking university they are at and we know that lots of companies recruit from there.

I think uni is still a valuable experience to have if you choose one that you can keep up with academically. You never know where it might take you. Having a degree also shows a level of academic learning to future employers too. What is the alternative for her? Look at all options.