AIBU to discourage uni for daughter, I'm worried about debt without career plan?

I wish somebody had talked me out of it. I went in 2013 so have a giant plan 2 loan.

I enjoyed the uni experience but I got no value out of my degree. In recent years my employer has put me through a relevant degree for free and now I earn fairly well but I’m paying out a big chunk every month on that pointless degree.

Apprenticeships now are for more than the trades, they are white collar jobs. Accounting, the law, optometry, engineering, IT etc.

The education included can lead to a degree level qualification.

There is a very broad range of options nowadays.

Do you struggle with comprehension? Where did I say I will not support them to go to university? I already have savings for them to go if it proves to be the right route for them. What I said was I would not blindly support them without a plan. Everyone here talking about formative experiences, that’s all lovely, but I also know a lot of people who went and dropped out because it wasn’t the right decision for them, they went with the crowd and pressure, they were then left with unnecessary debt and self esteem issues. I know others who went and now work in supermarkets with a sense of entitlement, lost.

It’s an extremely privileged position to be so flippant about £50,000+ experience. I just don’t want my children to be so entitled they think they have the right to do something without a plan, especially when they need me to pay £30,000 towards it.

All of that does not amount to “I will not support my children to go to university”. Stop trying to make the matter so simplistic, OP is allowed to be concerned and have an opinion, especially when she has to pay for it.

I've been through this with my own daughter who is coming up to 19yrs, she off to uni in September. In the end we found that the job opportunities for her chosen A Levels were non existent, even getting a foot in the door now is hard and apprenticeships are competitive. All of her cohort in school had left last year or were going this year.

DD wants to be at Uni, she's not ready to stop her education, she needs to be with people her own age and to experience more in life. I can't tell her not to go because I loved it and I think she will do too.

Yes, I'm not saying certain jobs don't need a specific degree but what I'm saying is GENERALLY, degrees do not train you for a job and you should go if you want to LEARN rather than for a job. Plenty of law graduates don't become lawyers and me having a Creative Writing degree doesn't make me into a best selling author. Learning was the end goal, nothing else. I'm a teacher too and what makes me one is that I'm an expert in my subject because I went to university for the love of my subject first and foremost.

It's not your decision or your debt. And she'll never pay it off. And the debt isn't the same as credit card debt. I see it as a graduate tax

I agree about it not being the default. I think life is too short and evanescent for ANYTHING in life to be a default.

Surely that depends on the university and the subject? Many medical and AHP qualifications are degrees taught in universities, also teaching and that's just off the top of my head! oh also vets!

I'm clearly in the minority here.

I have 2 uni aged children and I didn't encourage them to go based on the following points:

DS1 would never have managed academically
DS2 might manage but would struggle and isn't sure what he wants to do.

I feel strongly that uni should not be the "default " as it was when I was that age in the 90s. It's a hell of a lot of debt and I do query the value of many degrees.

FWIW, DH and I both have degrees, albeit BScs only.

I always tell them that uni isn't going anywhere. I started mine at 22 and am so glad I waited.

I don't think you should encourage or discourage. Be honest about what you can do for her and what you can't and make sure she understands the facts about student loans and repayment. @KeyLimeCake I suggest that you do the same. Be clear with your kids about what is possible for you, not what other parents do.

Yes but the love of learning is at the root of that - many jobs require a degree because you have demonstrated that you want to learn, have critical thinking skills etc. Your point doesn't take away from mine, I know what you mean. But university doesn't train you for a job, that isn't what it's for.

You can't say that when so many jobs/professions these days stipulate a degree as being the entry requirement, whether relevant or not.

I agree with this , partly because at 21 with 3 years earning your parents income becomes irrelevant - I would also encourage them to get a house share even if not at uni - my son did at 18 - it made him far more grown up !!

It's not your choice. Job training isn't the sole purpose of education. Going to university is a formative experience she should be able to have if she wants to.

It's not just about the degree and money though ... it's a huge experience which often changes them for the better.

My DD has graduated and is now in a job that she loves but she didn't need her degree to do it ... some friends of mine think this has been a complete waste of time and money.

She left home at 18 rather shy and lacking in confidence ... she found her tribe at uni and blossomed. Didn't come home to live again, met her GF there and is loving life, they've just bought a house together.

Some will always make it. My DS is in his first post after graduating and is earning 40k, my friends DS at 28 is on 90k. My DS has a clear path for promotion and loves what he does. My friends DS is exceptional though and was employed by an IT firm when studying, he was very good at breaking in to complex IT systems and won a few hacking competitions.

Some won’t make it because there simply are not enough graduate level jobs and they will have mediocre careers. Being academic is not always enough it’s about fitting in and having good soft skills. Some just have them it’s their personality. My friends DS was always engaging and rather charming and people just like him, he was like it as a small child. Another friends child is quite frankly obnoxious, he was as a child and is as an adult.

YANBU

Encourage her to read (or listen to) 'The case against education' (Bryan Caplan).

It looks at all the socio economic factors around education, particularly university. The author is a uni professor of economics so not anti education. The book weighs up the pros and cons of it all really well. It's an American book but transfers really well to the current UK uni fees situation.

Then let her form her own decision.

I’ve pushed my kids towards university but with jobs at the end of professional degrees. Also they have to/will live at home whilst there as we can’t afford to pay for all the living accommodation. We are lucky in that we live within commuting distance of 5 universities including Russell Group ones. That will have to do them. They can get their own property when they have a job.
University gives them a chance to mature and grow. Also, like someone else said, sometimes just having any degree is enough to secure a job.

I couldn’t agree more. I’d be encouraging her, not trying to put her off.

Wow.

Good luck with all of that. Also don't come back in a few years asking why your kids hate you so much. 140k and you won't sub them 5k? Again, wow.

Really uit is up to your daughter, l went to university in the 80's so l didn't accrue debt, it was a fabulous formative experience and l don't regret it at all, but, and it's a big but my degree never helped me one iota with my career.
With 20/20 hindsight l wouldn't want to accrue a large debt (of any kind,pay now pay later, pay when you earn £35k) at the beginning of my journey, but on the other hand my degree taught me critical thinking and how to research, which l have used every day since.

That was a lot of words to defend one position, it works for you, fabulous, it won’t work for everyone, it’ll put different people under different financial pressure and for others it’s not simply about blind affordability but if it brings good value, you can’t tell someone what they should value.

I went to uni, I utilised my degree and have a postgrad (all self funded), but I will not blindly support my children into uni even with a household income of £140,000. 19 years old is adult enough to understand the financial pressure of £50,000+ of debt to themselves and over £20,000 financial pressure to their parents. It is not too much to ask to expect the student to discuss with the parent, have some kind of plan and negotiate. If it wasn’t for the household assessment and expectation of parents to contribute I would say it’s down to the student. But alas, they’re not treated like adults, putting parents in an unfair position.

Apprenticeships are fantastic for some kids but they're not a silver bullet for every school leaver and I wish people would stop suggesting they are the answer to everything.

They were re-introduced and encouraged in large part because too many kids were doing meaningless and expensive degrees just because they were there. But they are not for everyone.

An academic child who wants to go to university is unlikely to be suited for an apprenticeship, which is designed to provide vocationally-focused training for specific (non academic) careers. We're constantly being told our kids should all train to be plumbers or electricians but not everyone can or wants to do this.

Also apprenticeships are as over-subscribed these days as degrees are, if not more.

I am of the exact opposite view - I think you should ONLY go to university for the love of learning and to broaden your mind. Universities are NOT job training academies, they never have been. However, the commercialisation of the uni sector had made people feel like they need a 'return' on their investment. She should go to learn how to debate, critical thinking, expressing ideas, formal writing. I went to university with no career in mind and I've spent £8k on a Masters degree just for the love of it. University is for learning, nothing else.

We earn that as a joint income (salary probably split 20/80, but overall it puts us above the threshold) and have supported/supporting two through uni. Both doing 4 year degrees (one with an industrial placement year, and one doing an integrated masters)

Yes it's bloody hard having to top up, we've had to stop saving for a few years. We have tightened belts. Even with a good income we don't own our own home and rent increases have been added during this time too. However, our "high" income means they are reliant on us helping. That's just a fair thing to do. It's not their fault our joint income is deemed high by SF.

The alternative is my husband finding a job that pay less so our kids can claim more loans. That's a ridiculous alternative.

My oldest is graduating this summer. After living back home last year while completing a placement year it allowed them to save and fund final year. They have now secured a graduate role in degree field for September. They will be earning more than I do.

If we hadn't of supported during the degree they wouldn't be in the position of having this job offer as they wouldn't have been able to afford uni on minimum loans.

That's the ceiling people speak of. I am at my ceiling by not having a degree, they are starting above my ceiling because of their degree.

Going back to the OP. I struggle to understand why a parent that has experienced uni, and all the benefits that has given, would not want the same for their child. It smacks of pulling up the ladder after you've used it.

Ultimately, I believe my role as a parent is to push my child out into the world with help so they can surpass me. I feel that has been achieved with oldest and hopefully will be similar with youngest.