Six year old trans girl ‘tries to cut off her penis’ after Guide ban

That is not the same as lying to them that they can change sex. Surely that's obvious?

Can you explain why you think upholding the law is 'weaponsing' a child?

She said a section of children will go on to need surgery and individual approaches are needed.

It’s clear she most certainly does not think children should be weaponised and used in the same sex toilet debate.

So Cass didn't say we should affirm these child whole heartedly by lying to them, correct?

As for this child, who is weaponising him?

The people upholding the SC judgement and ensuring single sex spaces for girls?

Or the parents of this child who enrolled him for an activity they knew he wouldn't be able to remain in? And are now sharing details of extremely concerning behaviour for media manipulation?

She said they need individualised care and are being weaponised which they are

Asked if children had been let down by an adult-led debate, Cass said "absolutely", adding they "were also caught up in all the issues about single-sex spaces and sports and safe areas for women which were actually not to do with the children but they were somehow part of a football within it".
"That's a real shame that children have been weaponised."
The vast majority of people in the middle of the debate were silent while the "people at the extremes" and rhetoric in the media had been "frightening for young people," the clinician said.
She added that some activists for trans rights had been "so strident that it's made it more difficult for trans people themselves who are just trying to live under the radar", while equally people who had taken the view no-one should ever transition had "similarly made it difficult".

it’s pretty vile and I’m glad she recognises that. We’re talking about struggling children.

Cass did not say these children need to be told they are 'actually' the opposite sex and you should throw your toys out of the pram when they aren't allowed access to spaces that don't belong to them.

As Cass has said

She added: "There are a tiny number of people who will never be comfortable with their biological sex, with the gender associated with their biological sex.
"And for them, a medical pathway is the only way they're going to live their life comfortably. And we don't understand why that is, but we have to try and help those people thrive as much as the young people who are going to grow out of this."

It’s the same for Anorexics. I have an Anorexic daughter and part of keeping her out of hospital has been to let her stay underweight but to eat enough to stay out of hospital. Years of forced feedibg under paeds to big weights made the condition ten times worse and nearly destroyed her mental health. She has had specialised adult care which recognises she is so much better being in control and eating what she can manage, not what she should but enough not to end up in hospital.

They won't get the difference. But sexism, racism, homophobia etc are based in seeing groups of people as inferior. Intellectually inferior, morally inferior...the flawed reasoning varies across groups. But the definition of transphobia has expanded from people who think trans people are in some way inferior, to those who simply have a different system of beliefs around classifying people into two equal groups - male and female.

I do not intend to 'abuse, disrespect or hate' trans people. However, I do not wish to 'uphold or recognise their chosen gender and pronouns.'. I would prefer to run a mile.
@JonesTown has some rather idiosyncratic uses of language. Hate is a very strong word. I do not hate anybody, including trans people, although they do make me very uncomfortable for a number of reasons.
@JonesTown seems to want to strong arm people into doing what she wants by using overly emotive vocabulary and I for one, do not tolerate being falsely cast as a 'hater'.

But lying to a child won't help them. Why lie?

Anorexic's think they are fat when they are painfully underweight. We don't lie to them to appease them. We shouldn't lie about changing sex either. They will find out one day some adults lied to them and they really couldn't change sex. That's not fair at all. Leads to harm. Why inflict harm.

I don't understand what you mean. What is different?

Diagnosed autistic people are several times more likely to identify as trans. It's not just a sensory issue or struggling with changes in puberty. Autistic children are often less interested in 'social norms'.

When younger my autistic child commonly chose from the girls clothes section they loved clothes with unicorns and sparkles. But they also loved dinosaurs and trucks. They just weren't in any way interested what other people thought. Its really typical for autisitc children. But it means nothing about gender. I couldn't easily have made it into that and ended up.with a trans kid.

I think we all need to be more understanding and see each other as individuals rather than simply members of a specific identity group.
@JonesTown Why can't we be both ie individuals and members of a group? That's what actually happens in the world. Eg I am the individual me and a member of a family. There is no conflict.

So, what you're saying then, is a transwoman is only as much of a woman as you decide to allow 'her' to be? You know 'shes' not a woman, or you'd allow access to all areas, why would you not? But you are prepared to allow 'her' certain aspects of being a woman, at your own discretion, and withhold others as you see fit?
Do you think that's a better 'kinder' and more respectful way to treat a person than to own your belief that they're not a woman and engage with them honestly and consistently, so at least they know where they stand?

Trans women happen to have been assigned male at birth
I have nothing against you, @JonesTown. However, I do find that a very odd statement to make. You present thier sex assignation as random. This seems a strange thing to write as it is perfectly obvious why they have been assigned 'male'.
If you say things that don't make any sense, it's hard to take any of your arguments seriously.

If you read enough threads, I think you’d realise that many on FWR have walked in exactly those shoes and many others have specific and even expert qualifications from which to draw and discuss.

In fact, look back two pages and you’ll see this very accusation posed and answered.

Part of the rationale for having single sex activities isn’t necessarily to stop one sex from doing certain activities, but to allow children of both sexes to enjoy all kinds of activities freely without the pressure of sexism, gender roles, or trying to play up to/impress/be embarrassed around the opposite sex.

For example, if boys and girls went camping together, would the boys try and take over the tasks that are seen as more “masculine”? Would girls feel embarrassed or unconfident doing more “masculine” tasks in front of boys, and vice versa - would boys try and shirk tasks seen as “feminine”? There is lots of research about how teenage girls start to shrink and take up less space around teen boys. (IIRC there is a chapter about it in Caroline Criado Perez’s book Invisible Women). So female only groups allow girls to express themselves more freely and gain confidence. And I think they are even more important in this era of “manosphere” bloggers and misogyny.

But this is a confused position and I think it makes it much harder to stand your ground on single sex spaces.

If you are prepared to call a man 'she', how do you then turn around and tell 'she' that she should be going to the men's not the ladies?

How can a man be a woman for the purposes of pronouns, but not for the purposes of bathrooms/changing rooms?

I'm not sure what 'talking to them as I would another woman' means. Do you talk to women differently to men?

I have autistic children, that is completely different. It’s a sensory thing.

Really wish posters would stop lecturing parents going through this as to how to handle something that is hugely difficult and painful. You have no idea as you haven’t walked in their shoes so have zero qualifications from which to draw on and lecture .

I don't have an issue referring to a trans woman by their preferred pronouns and talking to them as I would another woman.

That said, I don't believe trans people should have access to single sex spaces as the needs of biological women should not be dismissed in favour of trans women.

I realise that there will be people that jump on this and say it is mental health issues and delusions, but I believe that adults are in a position to understand how they feel and be able to articulate that. Perhaps it is - but access to counselling for trans people to receive this support has waiting lists of 4-5 years.

The link with autism is hugely important.

My autistic son is currently horrified that his moustache is slowly starting to grow. He absolutley hates it - the rough feeling of the hair and the way it looks. He has said several times that he wishes he was a girl so he wouldn't have to worry about these things.

However.... he in no way identifies as a girl. He is just struggling with natural adolescent changes. His autistic traits of sensory issues and struggling with change make it harder for him. I know autistic girls regularly have similar issues with starting periods etc. He needs sympathy and reassurance and I'm sure he'll be fine.

I'm ok with that actually.

If you believe, as I do, that gender is a social construct, just a bundle of assumptions and expectations and constraints that people apply to us based on our sex, then saying society "assigns" you a gender[ed set of expectations] at birth because of your sex is pretty much exactly what happens.

Where I and the genderists part company of course is the batshit idea firstly that that this "gender" is innate, and secondly that it is both different to sex (so trans people can change it) but also interchangeable with sex (so we can't have single sex supports alongside gender, we have to accept trans people of the opposite sex into supposedly single sex provisions and use the same words interchangeably for sex and gender).

Which is quite obviously, when you look at it clearly, a "heads I win, tails you lose" bad faith proposition.

In what way do you think they are female? Or by putting the space between trans and women, do you mean women who think they're men, in which case I agree, I'd have no issue calling them female, as they are female.

Incidently, I have no issue accepting trans women as females and referring to them as such, as long as they are adults and have the capacity to understand.

I'm curious what you actually mean by this, when you know that they are not females.

The reason there are male and female categories is because biological males have an advantage over biological females - they are physically stronger and faster. A trans woman has the physical advantages of a biological male and so should not compete in the female category.
Incidently, I have no issue accepting trans women as females and referring to them as such, as long as they are adults and have the capacity to understand.

Well, because if "she" applies to a type of mind, or an undefinable feeling, what does that say about all the other "she"s in the world? Are we also people with that type of mind or undefinable feeling? Or if we are not, do we therefore need to identify out of "she" so the people who have the feeling can use it instead?

Half of humanity is female, give or take. It doesn't seem an unreasonable expectation to me that there should exist clear and unequivocal language that refers to us and only to us.

It really doesn't seem fair to say to half of humanity "sorry, you can't use she to refer to exclusively to female people any more because some male people feel like she too and it will make them sad if you don't let them. We know that means "she", and "woman" and "girl" don't have clear meanings any more but does that really matter? You still know who you are, right? You just can't clearly communicate that to anyone else any more, or base laws or policies on it, or oh gosh is that the time? Ah sorry I'd love to get into that but I have to go, I'll just put you down as a yes ok?"

Seems unnecessarily overreaching to take away the language of half of humanity just to label a feeling, no? Tiny bit overkill maybe?

If your child had said they "felt" or "just knew" they were Japanese, assuming of course you aren't Japanese, would you have agreed with surprise that apparently you have a Japanese child? Would you be telling us that you have no idea why, because there are no Japanese cultural stereotypes in how you treated them, and yet somehow, here you are?

Of course you wouldn't. Because that is ridiculous, right? Someone can love [their idea of] Japanese culture, can have a fixed idea that being Japanese would be right for them, but that doesn't actually make them Japanese. Being Japanese is a specific thing and your child is not it.

So why is Gender different? Why ifyour child says they are a different culture you'd say "No you aren't" but if they say they are a different sex you'd say "yes you are"?

Quite simply, because you see these things differently. You believe the first is impossible but the second is not, so you would meet the first with "of course you aren't, don't be silly" and the second with "well, maybe you are. Tell me about it".

You think it came entirely from your child but actually it was you as their parent who applied the decision that this is a "real" identity not a childish belief in something impossible.

(1) Of course a person can become legally Japanese by moving to Japan and gaining Japanese citizenship, but it doesn't happen because they have pre-existing intrinsic Japaneseness, it's because they pass some admin that is equally accessible to people who never felt Japanese a single day of their lives.