Six year old trans girl ‘tries to cut off her penis’ after Guide ban

Thank you for being kind.
I wholeheartedly agree that parents who use their child’s gender questions to showboat are parenting terribly, and I also agree that there should be safe spaces for everyone.
Girls shouldn’t have to get changed with biological males, but equally boys who can pass as female shouldn’t have to go into male spaces, and girls who can pass as male should also have spaces where they can be safe from predatory males.

Small problem - female people exist.

"Gender" doesn't change the reality that having a female body in a society shaped by millenia of patriarchy/male ownership/defaulting to male has physical, social and economic consequences. Ignoring this reality to support people's "gender" means taking away the structures that were put in place to mitigate those consequences. It cannot be done without making things worse for the female population.

In short, your proposals demonstrate "Is it good for trans people?" is the only measure you are considering. Fairness for female people is not even on your radar.

I wonder if you realise that or if it's entirely subconscious that you do not register half of humanity?

You can try and run away from yourself.

It never works. The truth and hard cold reality always persist and you have to come to terms with that.

You can force others to believe what they know to be true. Attempts to do so only ever lead to hard break and controlling and sometimes abusive behaviour.

There is no nuance nor compromise to be found in this.

I dearly wish there was to prevent all the harm it causes.

It is not an issue with people being unkind. It is not an issue with people hating. It is just an inescapable fact of life that we are what we are and we can not change sex. Even if we so desire it.

We can only find peace in accepting that. It is not to be found in lobbying government and forcing change in the law. This doesn't not change sex. It does not change that transition can only ever be cosmetic and it's cost is exceptionally high in terms of long term risk to health be in mental or physical.

To pretend differently is the very highest harm of all because it sells the lie to a vulnerable generation who hope that this isn't true and that somehow they are different.

They are not.

Some of us went on a journey of learning the same in our own ways. Some of us have seen first hand how it all implodes.

Maybe it works for a tiny number of people but that comes at a massive cost to the rest of us. And frankly to put it bluntly it's not enough of a reason to play lets pretend.

I grew up on the 80’s when (as it was called then) gender bending was the norm. Plenty of men wore make up and had an outwardly feminine look. And women had short crops and wore suits and ties.

Of course there were a few raised eyebrows at the time but as the decade went on it became and more and more accepted.

To go from that acceptance that we can all dress and present how we choose to where we are now when kids bring gender nonconforming are being told they’re the opposite sex and pushed into a narrow box seems massively regressive

Shame on all the adults who have allowed or encouraged this poor little fellow to believe he’s a girl. Reality was always going to knock him down sooner or later. Adults who lie to children about something as important as this are a disgrace.

Today, I am dressed exactly as I am every day. Men's jeans(always Wranglers) , I've worn those since I was 13. A cast off to t shirt from my son, a plain jumper and trainers. I would ask hiw much of that is specific to one 'gender'? I've had short hair that could have been a modern boys style. Plenty of women don't dress in stereotypical 21st century, western clothing. In other cultures both sexes wear trouser like garments, in others both wear skirt type garments.. It's very narrow minded to believe that women only dress one way,look one way or have only certain interests. When I was young we didn't want to do that, I had boyfriends with hair down to their waists, who wore eyeshadow, colourful clothes. Why have we reverted to stereotypes, so that young people think that wanting to wear different clothes changes their sex?

I agree that the current climate has made this extremely hard to enforce and anyone navigating this has my sympathy.

Which is why I think all the 'born in the wrong body' messaging has been extraordinarily harmful. There are many powerful people with a huge amount to answer to.

Yes absolutely.

I'm not going to collude in any belief that this child had changed sex or that their gender is somehow more important than their sex.

I absolutely agree that gender is mostly nonsense. I have always told my children that the only thing boys can’t do that girls can is to be pregnant, and the only thing girls can’t do is pee standing up (my youngest took issue with this one, so I stand corrected - it’s the only thing girls shouldn’t do)..
However, in the real world that my child has been navigating, gender unfortunately does crop up in the way the world treats you: in pronouns, hair styles, clothing choices and ultimately in interacting with the gender they identify with.
I suppose I’m trying to say that ideologically I agree with you, but unfortunately that argument didn’t hold much water when trying to help my child!

I have a family member who transitioned, then detransitioned. Unfortunately she took T for a few years and that has left with her with considerable health problems.

She's very typical of a cohort of girls who transitioned. She is on the spectrum and she's attracted to women. Eventually she realised that 'living as a man' was not the answer to the confusion and non conformity she felt.

So perhaps that answers your question ...

You can hardly have a sensible conversation about nonsensical, damaging beliefs.

I'm not the poster in question but I know 3 trans youths (two MtoF and one FtoM) plus two young people who are "non-binary" lesbian girls .

I don't use preferred pronouns because I find them offensive and ridiculous by turns, and because I don't believe it helps these young people at all. It would also be really confusing for me, given that all of them look like the biological sex they are, albeit with more hair dye and piercings.

Are my feelings more valid then theirs? Well they are to me.

Well you can bury your head in the sand and choose to refuse to see that not parent in life doesn't have their child's best interests in life as their priority.

Meanwhile. Safeguarding principles still remain.

In my work I occasionally dealt with people who were trans, so over nearly 40 years, quite a few. I didn't like having to refer to them as female because they aren't. I did my best to not use the terms she/her etc. My feelings about them deciding that, being 'female', they could access female spaces were apparently just ignored. I was expected to be kind without any kindness being shown to me. So, quite frankly I'm glad that we have reached a point where women & girls don't have to tolerate men in their spaces. And part of that is not engaging in what is, to me, a desire from trans people to be validated in their beliefs. I don't validate other cults and this is no different.

Totally agree that gender is about stereotyping.

I have two friends with trans adult DC. Both were boys who were very obviously gay from a young age. They both grew up as out gay young men until their mid 20’s when they both decided to identify as women.

And with both, their whole appearance is very stereotype based - long hair extensions, heavy make up, very tight dresses and high heels even to go to Sainsburys.

They’re still gay men imo they are just choosing an outward look that they believe is what a woman should be.

'Use the language we demand or be shamed/punished. Even if you don't agree with it. Even if it doesn't align with reality. Say it. Say it!'

There's definitely a cult-y vibe....

Cult? Really?
Im trying to have a sensible conversation here.

..and for you, those reasons are more important than the feelings of the people you are referring to..
Can I ask how many people you know IRL who would prefer you use pronouns which don’t match their biological sex?
(This post sounds more antagonistic than I mean it to, but I can’t find a way to say this more neutrally!)

Oh cross posted, thank you.

Gender dysphoria is not a real thing because 'gender' is not a real thing

Gender is simply a collection of sex stereotypes, behaviours, likes and dislikes

You can no more be gender dysphoric than you can be stamp collector dysphoric

I dont collect stamps, whatever shall I do, I feel so uncomfortable about this and not happy with myself.

Hi - can you define ‘gender’ for those of us who find this all a bit baffling. Because whenever I see gender defined it inevitably includes regressive stereotypes.

It sounds like you have a sensible approach to things.

Sadly though that isn’t always the case. When DS was in year 4 a mum of a year 5 child announced that he was now known by a female name, she made a massive song and dance about it at the school gate and all over social media (at point I deleted her) she started trying to argue for him to use the girls toilets and took offence when parents said they weren’t comfy with it.

The whole thing was a shit show of the mothers causing with the poor child in the middle of it. He is now about 18 and last I heard was back to living as male but with very little contact with his mum.

Yes. You can't make other people adhere to the tenets of a cult they are not disciples of.

Yes.

Because the child is MALE.

So gender as well as biological sex are set in stone in your view?