It’s another ND one

You forgot to add dyslexia, dyspraxia, learning disabilities, fasd and 'acquired neurodivergence'...

What does that mean?

Op you mentioned not liking parties as indicative of being an introvert. I'm autistic, my boyfriend is an introvert though pretty sure he's NT. I would be considered someone who 'functions', ie I have a decent job, live independently etc.

My introvert boyfriend doesn't like going to parties, finds them boring, thinks drunk people are irritating, and can make small talk perfectly fine, but finds he gets tired of it pretty quick. He'd much rather spend his free time on his own or one on one with a friend.

I also don't like parties, and share the same views as my boyfriend. In addition though, if I have to go to a party, I will spend a lot of time mentally planning ahead. By the time the party comes around you can bet I will have looked at the venue multiple times on Google, tried to guage the interior for mental maps, unofficially surveyed anyone else I know who is going to judge what is an acceptable outfit/gift/leaving time. I will have rehearsed many conversations in my head, I will have watched out for 'good examples' of small talk that I see and make a mental note of them. At the party I find it difficult to focus on conversation because the music, people, dynamics, all are so overwhelming and all compete for my attention. If there is too much going on I find it physically painful and I lose the ability to speak. My best attempts at socialising will usually see me perceived as quiet and a bit of a wallflower as I cannot follow a group conversation enough to get involved. If I get too stressed and can't mask I might be perceived as aloof. I (without meaning to) will observe the people so intensely (because I'm trying to understand what's going on) that I will be able to give a detailed account of everyone's behaviour the next day if I wished to. I am so drained that I can't plan anything to do with people the following day, I pretty much need to let my brain go offline. I can counter some of the above by drinking alcohol but it isn't for enjoyment and it doesn't help me feel relaxed, it simply dampens down some of the experience.

No one would know that social events would affect me so much unless I told them, I'm usually perceived I think as quiet and inoffensive, albeit not bringing much to the party. No one would know how my functioning is affected other than those I live with. I don't usually tell people this stuff but I hope you can see how the mental load required above, extrapolated to life generally, is disabling and more than being an introvert or having a certain personality type.

So autism and both types of Adhd?

two key changes: removing subcategories such as Asperger’s, and by only two domains of the 3 now being required for diagnosis.

Sorry, but can I ask what ‘two domains of the 3’ you mean?

if ND is becoming more common than NT, then surely NT is no longer NT? Or, is it that us ND birds of a feather flock together, as it were?

Becoming more common doesn't mean majority, either literally or socially.

Neurotypical, like neurodiverse, comes from an autistic sociologist - typical is being used in a social way of what our current social structures treat as typical, what society is typically designed to accommodate. Even if we somehow became the majority, it wouldn't change that unless society also changed. It's like how women are a literal majority, but society in many ways treats men as the 'typical'.

Some conditions do become mostly 'typical' once we're well accommodated for. Most eye issues that lead to needing glasses are treat as 'typical', particular for adults - there can be a few issues, but society has adjusted to them being common place. I don't think society is generally moving that way for neurodiverse people, if anything it feels more separating off.

Yes, data supports 'birds of a feather' - and also that birds not of a feather tend to push apart. Multiple studies have shown neurotypicals tend to prefer other neurotypicals and negatively judge autistic people within 7 or so seconds (most just slightly) even if just watching a video without being told anything about the people in the video. Similarly autistic people have been shown to clock and prefer other autistic people over neurotypicals in similar types of studies. It's how the double empathy problem comes about - both sides can see the kindness and empathy of themselves and struggle to see it in the other.

Where are these stats from please?

WHO, NHS, and other places that pp have linked have looked into the current research and data on it.

With Autism and ADHD combined, we're looking at ~5% with current data, as we now recognise there is a significant overlap (previously, a diagnosis of one excluded the other).

Stats that are 10-15%+ (I've seen as high as 20%) are usually including more conditions like dyslexia, dyspraxia, dyscalculia and other neurodevelopment conditions as well as in-utero exposure disorders like FASD that cause significant neurodevelopment changes. Some also include certain neurological disorders like Tourette's and Schizophrenia that show a link with neurodevelopment issues. The same frequency research puts FASD to about as common to twice as common as Autism, including that there is an overlap there as well, but it gets a lot less media exposure. Including all of those, the number will get bigger even with co-morbidity, but there are some disagreements over how much to expand neurodiverse - which originally was just discussing autistic people & now firmly is used to discuss autism and ADHD, with some including others.

Following from my earlier comments I’m finding this thread quite reassuring that maybe I’m not just completely useless at working life! I’ve had so many career changes it’s become a joke (and finally been ‘settled’ for 2 years although I struggle a lot with some aspects and constantly job hunt - check all my favourite job sites several times day - in case something more exciting is out there!!). Potential AuDHD is making a lot of sense.

100 years ago they would have pretty much only had bread and potato anyway so would have suited them perfectly 😂 although of course food fussiness would have been less tolerated.. enforced with harsh words and/or the back of the hand, no doubt 🙄 thankfully we have progressed in how we treat our children!!

ADHD kids would have been far less obvious as they would have had a constant outlet for their energy and/or could have hyper focussed on industry and work in the home from much younger.... Again, swings and roundabouts - we obviously don't want to go back to jobs/workhouses for kids but equally, some kids are just not able to sit down for hours and nothing wrong with that per se 🤷🏼‍♀️

I am a Huge believer of it's not Us it's Them 🤪

Are the NHS and NAS not those in the industry?. Re autism it’s widely believed to be 1% but actually now double that due to under diagnosis so 2%. Re ADHd the NHS Taskforce quote 3-5% and say how under diagnosed it is in the UK as regards other European countries( Norway, Denmark, Spain). Not sure their levels are as much as 10-15%.

https://www.ucl.ac.uk/news/2023/jun/number-autistic-people-england-may-be-twice-high-previously-thought

https://www.bma.org.uk/what-we-do/population-health/improving-the-health-of-specific-groups/autism-spectrum-disorder

https://www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/report-of-the-independent-adhd-taskforce-part-1/

Try right to choose. I’m NHS late diagnosed with both(50s) but choose not to medicate.

I'm finding this thread very interesting. I think I'm NT - I get overwhelmed at times by modern life but not in a debilitating way.

I work as a TA and interestingly a number of our autistic girls just adore knitting and crafting - I think they like having something to do with their hands and producing beautiful work.

I do wonder how some of our kids would have managed a 100 years ago - the kids who refuse to eat almost everything, the non verbal kids, the kids who don't engage with anyone around them?

Somebody else got in there with the link before I could complete my rantathon 😆

Interestingly, experts in the field declare prison populations to be upwards of 50% undiagnosed ADHD so it's definitely in societies interest to look into this

The true figure by those in the industry is deemed to be more like 10-15%... The unfortunate truth is that many people believing they are Nd are unable to get a diagnosis due to a combination of an overloaded NHS (& now overloaded private diagnosis sector, many of whom are not even taking any more applications) and a cynical and obstructive approach when diagnosis is saught.

I have personal experience of this as I myself have looked into an ADHD diagnosis via both routes over the years and have been discouraged:

I approached my doctor around 15 years ago seeking help with a history of self harm and a long term (since early teens) eating disorder, who (& this is outing to any RL friends) casually declared he believed I had ADHD and asked me if I had found any coping mechanisms that worked, to which I replied that I smoked a small amount amount of pot throughout the day which helped 🙈 and his response was "off the record, carry on"! Obviously 30s me was delighted with that...!

Second attempt at a diagnosis came when I was struggling with young children 10 years later and had had to ditch all my "coping mechanisms" - eating disorder, pot, and a job as an outdoor instructor - a different doctor took one look at me and one look at my notes and declared I'd managed to get this far just fine and sorry, but there was no budget for it in our county and dismissed me. I left, speechless, and cried in my car for 20 minutes.

6-7 years on from That shocker of an experience, spattered with occasional longing glances into the world of private diagnosis (now all mostly either with closed books or prohibitively expensive), I have pretty much just accepted my place as undiagnosed ND - along with my small group of 5/6 friends, yes also all undiagnosed ND, birds of a feather really do - but I am not going to let my children go through the same as I have so will push for a diagnosis for them so they feel they are not broken or with "faulty wiring" (how I wryly described myself all my life). My son, incidentally, has been picked up by every single teacher he's had since age 3 at nursery as being ND and is still "on the diagnosis pathway" now... He is 11.

This link is very interesting and shows the true figures are way higher than Nice optimistically state...

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey/survey-of-mental-health-and-wellbeing-england-2023-24/attention-deficit-hyperactivity-disorder#key-findings

I think in 10-15 years we'll understand that whilst the neurodiverse are still in the minority it is definitely another case of the gods old 80-20 rule 🤪 and hopefully not much further than that will see the availability of an education system that supports this not the sit still and be quiet or suffer the consequences bullishit our kids are subject to now

The numbers of ND people out of work is massive so they are more likely to need craft groups. Stands to reason when you look at what they struggle with and how any reasonable adjustments in the work place are attacked but the figures are shameful and we need to do more to help stay in the work place.

National Autistic Society and NHS. You’ll notice from the recent independent NHS task force investigation lead by experts in the field they highlight how under diagnosed ADHD is.

https://www.autism.org.uk/advice-and-guidance/what-is-autism#:~:text=autism%20a%20disability?-,How%20many%20autistic%20people%20are%20there?,true%20diversity%20of%20autistic%20people.

https://digital.nhs.uk/data-and-information/publications/statistical/adult-psychiatric-morbidity-survey/survey-of-mental-health-and-wellbeing-england-2023-24/autism-spectrum-disorder

www.england.nhs.uk/long-read/report-of-the-independent-adhd-taskforce-part-1/#:~:text=England%20and%20the%20rest%20of,obtain%20pharmacological%20treatment%20(9).

Well put! It wasn’t til I was 50 that I had my first diagnosis so I just thought I was useless

It has taken me until the age of 55 to find the job that works with my brain, not against it.

Assuming what (particularly late diagnosed women) go through is the same as being introverted or really liking something or not getting on at the school gate is really quite reductive and could be seen as dismissive and insulting

I’m diagnosed ASD and ADHD. For me it’s not being a bit socially awkward or being drained by teams and WhatsApp, that’s modern life and personality traits.

I’m what people would describe as ‘high functioning’ ASD and ADHD, I have a DH, DCs and a good professional job. But I’ve also been impacted my whole life, I didn’t fit in at school and therefore I was bullied throughout school, was clever but didn’t engage much with school work, ended up school refusing and self harm. I struggled with attendance at jobs until I found what fit and have worked my work life around what I can do with flexibility and work part time. I struggle with sleep, keeping the house, and simple tasks like drinking, going to the toilet and showers due to ADHD paralysis.

You mentioned hobbies, well for me the difference is enjoying a hobby and being all consumed by something or a topic. I won’t say what my social interest is but when there’s an ‘event’ I will spend my time researching and following it, staying up all night watching videos and researching and I struggle to think of anything else during these times. I’ve had to take time off work before because of it.

I don’t think it’s becoming the majority at all, but self diagnosis isn’t helping as lots of people think they are because of a few traits that have been shown on social media. But not wanting to do things or not liking parties does not mean someone is autistic. There is lots of criteria to meet and you also have to have been significantly impacted in your life.

I’m not sure it matters if people say they have adhd unless they are demanding everyone around them make accommodations for them. Or are demanding medication without a proper diagnosis.
does it matter

Well your belief is incorrect. Only 1-2% of people have autism and 3-4% have adhd. Many have both so will be the same people.

What nonsense! People have been joining organised social groups since the first one was ever set up. People who are interested in the same thing join a group, it's got nothing whatsoever to do with how many friends they have, or don't have, and even people with very wide social circles join organised groups.

I think you're move likely to find ND people at an organised social group. NT people are more likely to already have friends to do activities with so not need an organised social opportunity. I work with Autistic people and we often signpost them to activities like this when they are socially isolated.

And yes, i believe ND is such a wide, poorly defined term that - together with widening autism/ADHD criteria - ND is no longer a minority.

I'm somewhere in between. Some groups are just not representative of wider population, plus I'm slightly doubtful when people self diagnose. One of my hobby groups is similar, and I enjoy attending, enjoy the activities but ignore any ND chat that comes up now. I've ND family members and know enough about assessments.

Enjoy the hobby.