Resident doctors synicsl strike again

For goodness sake, the GMC know. They also know they need a lot of workers at the lowest level to fill rotas, and they know that most will be lost along the way as selection becomes competitive. It has always happened to a degree, but the wastage has grown because of the increase in student numbers with no increase in consultant numbers. The most academic and therefore the most able will still end up with the consultant jobs.

The thing which more people ought to know is that having a medical degree is by no means a guarantee of training, or of a consultant post. And as so many aspiring doctors seem not to know this, or seemingly that they will have to work nights and weekends, there perhaps ought to be pre admission courses for them explaining the realities.

Exactly.

You still don't seem to have taken this up with the GMC. Why ??

Like what ??? You are fixated so I'll play along to make you happy. Give me quotes and I'll give you facts. As an actual teacher.

No they didn't. And no it wouldn't.

But no comment on your own factual mistakes, so confidently stated?

Bizarre. If a school doesn't offer FM it isn't needed, but this is v v few schools. You said you were at a top Uni so I assumed they also needed the extra exams to get in, as well as FM.

Maths A level is designed to be taken by students who may not want to do maths degrees, but be an exam available to all good mathematicians.

Nit sure why you're still so hung up on maths ? Come teach it if you like as no one has enough teachers.

I will get in there first, @mumsneedwine , and acknowledge that some Maths degree programmes do not require A Level Maths because they admit to Foundation Year, Year 0, in lieu of A levels.

However this has nothing to do with your remark from 9.53 today that A level maths is not designed for those studying maths at degree level. It most certainly is. FM is an additional requirement made by stronger degree programmes.

When I asked you for examples, I was not interested in FYs (which I support) or the Open University (ditto, a special case). You wrote of programmes where the FM requirement replaces the A level requirement. I am unaware of any.

Thank you, @Marchesman.

I think the 15:2 ratio will still be no worse, and probably better, than the competition young scientists face for permanent positions in our universities and national labs.

One difference is that during career progression there are many well recognised and respected off ramps, at particular times. Changing pathways is not an easy readjustment, but it is quite doable and many end up satisfied with their choices.

Are there similar natural exits for medical students and trainees?

There is an awful lot of nonsense being spread around here by people who know absolutely nothing about medical education and training, they might think that they are supporting junior doctors but they are doing them no favours.

It is very unkind to give potential applicants to medicine the impression that soft skills, or whatever you want to call them, are more important than academic ability. They may help get you into medical school but medicine eventually becomes academically competitive. There are only 2000 GP and consultant retirals each year, and 10,000 medical graduates enter the system every year, rising to 15,000 in a few years time. Part time working and people leaving for other reasons will make space for some graduates but most of every new crop of doctors will be academically filtered out, and graduates with strong prior academic attainment predominantly progress - as they should:

" It may be that being a good doctor does not require one to know all of the material included in Finals and post-graduate examinations, but it would seem to be a difficult and perverse argument that clinical knowledge is not only irrelevant to medical practice, but also that a lack of such knowledge makes for better clinical practice. Given the careful blueprinting of examinations and their obvious face validity, we suggest that passing examinations such as those discussed here is important for being a good doctor, and those who have difficulty in attaining such clinical knowledge will probably be less good doctors. Knowledge is generally preferable to ignorance, and clinical knowledge underpins clinical practice."

For anyone who is unfamiliar with it, the paper from which the quote is extracted is an interesting read (unfortunately it is evidently beyond the two posters who should read it).

"The Academic Backbone: longitudinal continuities in educational achievement from secondary school and medical school to MRCP(UK) and the specialist register in UK medical students and doctors."

www.biomedcentral.com/1741-7015/11/242

@mumsneedwine

We just had a chuckle at your statement in the quote here that ‘A level maths is not designed for people going on to study at higher level.’ Every maths degree programme in the UK requires A level maths. Well, maybe if you look very, very hard it might be possible that you can find a couple that do not. Please let me know which ones! But all the ones people have heard of do. You know, Oxbridge, Imperial, Warwick, etc etc etc.

The stronger ones require A star at A level and A or A star at FM in addition.

I am genuinely puzzled as to why you think you would know more than a STEM academic who has been an admissions tutor married to a maths professor, both RG, about this?

@EasternStandard Yes. The government have withdrawn the offer. They are conscious of polls and this strike isn’t supported by voters. He needs to look strong when others are facing huge issues with living costs. Giving vast sums to the already well paid from taxpayer money is not what he wants to do and the offer is fair. It ends up at 35% over 4 years. Who, in don’t other walk of life, would not be pleased with that? Labour has to stand up to unions and threats or we are even more bankrupt than we are now.

You are underestimating the grade inflation that occurred between 1988 and 2010. Michael Gove effectively ended it and teachers loathed him for it.

Your BBB offer would be 3 A stars now. I can point you to some of the relevant research if it would be useful to you.

Is the timing for that ultimatum over?

Punishing conditions with better pay..... And far more selective entry.

I suspect this will backfire on Starmer. Not a good look. I wonder why it was not Streeting giving this ultimatum?

Starmer, in his wisdom, has decided to withdraw the extra much needed training posts, ultimately punishing patients. He and his family will be fine, of course, having been PM.

I’m not sure every single doctor is exhausted. Don’t see this with DDs friends who are doctors or my neighbours Dads who both followed their father into the profession. Like others they expect to work hard and then reap decent rewards. And they do. But they are resilient and fulfilled. Every organisation has its issues but the NHS has a stupidly high budget but does too much. There needs to be reform. Until that is grasped and the sacred cow is no more, there’s not much that can be done. We don’t get good enough productivity from the nhs and that needs to change. It’s inefficient and clunky. Especially in the care of the elderly. In some areas it’s a disgrace, yet still we cling to it and cannot even access it as doctors are striking. They had the offer of training posts but won’t accept the offer.

Not sure why you think anyone is interested in how or where you trained or your work experience.

This is a discussion about UK medical training and resident doctors striking.

Early years are brutal and don't need to be. We need increased consultant and trainee posts to match the increase in population.

Definitely!

I am so sorry to hear about your OH. You are right. Early years are brutal and don't need to be. We need increased consultant and trainee posts to match the increase in population.

I suspect you were very pleased with yourself when you wrote this. Unfortunately, nothing funny or impressive.

Please explain why doctors are hypocritical?

Are they greedy to expect that so many years of study and hard work should not drop them into a situation where they cannot do their job properly for sheer exhaustion? They know that patients are out at risk by this. Many fall by the wayside because it is too much; or emigrate; or work in pharmaceutical companies - all are a loss to our NHS.
They need both proper recompense for what this does to their lives, as well as a new approach to working hours - not easy I know because care needs to be fully covered.

Doctors are very greedy. Forget about the Hippocratic Oath, they should take a Hypocritical Oath.

@mumsneedwine This was the 2019 change to A level maths.

There was input from university mathematicians, but it is not correct to say that university topics were introduced to A level. It is correct to say that the same high school curriculum as always began to be examined in slightly more depth. It is also correct that a greater emphasis on bridging topics to university maths was introduced to FM, but not to A Level maths.

I asked AI to find where any JCQ report said the revised Maths A level incorporated former degree level topics. It could not. If you are correct, please provide a reference.

Maths A level is harder because it is linear and because of the slight extra depth.