Resident doctors synicsl strike again

Unbelievable. That post made me feel nauseous. Ivory towers

Right back at you. Twisting people's words is quite common on here.

We are not going to agree, no one else cares about maths, so I'll end this here.

And bless you. How patronising that poorer students aren't 'able'. So so out of touch it's incredible. Never heard of Brampton Academy (not my school !).

Many many students live as I've described. Some worse as also dealing with being young carers or abuse in the home. You need to get out more.

Hmmm I am not sure about this. We live in a deprived area although we are actually in the top 10% of earners and DS went to a selective school. All his offers were contextual including Oxford....

@mumsneedwine Classes of 30 plus for A level! Choose a MFL then! Very few able students live as you describe. Few medical student families. Work for food, study and do all that prep you say is necessary for med school? Only in rare circumstances I think.

@mumsneedwine the second paragraph if your quote above only makes sense if you admit that assessing applicants for university maths courses is one of the uses if Maths A level, based on my previous post.

My STEM subject is maths intensive so I do teach quite a lot of it, thanks. Not at high school level, however.

I dislike having my words twisted, in common with others on this thread. It isn’t about any particular topic.

Every good Maths degree programme in the UK requires Maths A level of those in the A level system. Therefore, one of the purposes of Maths A level us to assess suitability for Maths degree programmes.

Nowhere have I claimed that this is the exclusive purpose. Indeed, all students in our School have A star in Maths and most have A or A star in FM also, although FM is not required.

However, the top 10 Schools of Math in the CUG and only two others (Loughborough rsnked 19 and KCL ranked 38) actually require FM. Edinburgh, Glasgow and Manchester recommend it. A few others will make a lower offer to those who have it. Not many.

The majority of Schools of Mathematics in the UK do not make formal use of FM in their assessment process.

Well do I remember the tiresome consultation process ahead of the exam revisions, thanks very much. But from our perspective, the new ones are better.

I am still not sure why you think your experience of CPD trumps the experience of a STEM admissions tutor married to a maths professor on this.

Or Physicians Associates ... a whole other can of worms.

Degree outcomes depend on prior attainment for students with POLAR4 and IMD markers of deprivation - just as they do for students from other socioeconomic groups. Therefore, Oxford and Cambridge don't deviate from their standard offer when they consider contextual data.

Most of what doctors do will be done by AI in a few years anyway.

The lack of understanding around gateway courses is sad. They are only available to a very few students, for very good reasons. Other degrees do them too (including the beloved law). Even Oxbridge offer them now.

The lack of understanding about the different circumstances students have which allows them to learn is staggering. Fortunately Unis get it. If you live in a 2 bed flat on the 13th floor of a council tower block with a family of 7, have to work to earn while at school or not eat, heating is never on as too expensive, and classes are 30+ for A level, it is obviously more impressive to get an A than for the 2.4 family, warm and well fed student, with parents who can support and classes of -10. How can anyone not get this ???

Ditto. DD can't get home for about another 5 weeks as rota is brutal on this rotation. Easter eggs will have to wait. Or I might pop down and surprise her next week !

It's not. It's designed for ALL good mathematicians to reach a set skill which can be reached by about 60% of grade 7 GCSE students. FM was introduced to give deeper understanding to prepare for more mathematical courses eg. Maths, physics, engineering. JCQ do a lot of research before changing curriculums and setting standards.

Working for exam boards is quite common for teachers as it's great CPD.

A minimum requirement of AAB doesn't mean that's the majority of students, or the average student, it means it's the minimum. And foundation years (to my knowledge) are only available to contextual students, to help level the playing field where a young person is living with disadvantage or is a young carer. Again, not the average student.

I don't think the strike is because someone has come along and told them 'hey, did you know you can earn more money elsewhere easier, you are worth more.' I think that's quite insulting, they know that they can earn more elsewhere, but still they choose to study medicine.

I think one of the catalysts is the whole PA situation. When the F1/2 doctors see on placement PA and PA students being prioritised for training opportunities 'because they'll still be here in six months but you will have moved on', and talking about their salary and work life balance and how it makes them glad they didn't get into med school, that doesn't help. I know you're going to say that you've never seen or heard either of those things, but it does happen and it does feed into the discontent. Another factor is the random number generator for F1 jobs encouraging mediocrity rather than having a system that encourages students to strive for excellence. And the whole debacle over training numbers post F2. Lots of very loose phrasing in the current documentation like 'significant nhs experience' with no clear definition, which leave it open to interpretation and abuse.

There are obvious off ramps if you do a traditional medical degree with three preclinical years. This is one of the attractions, because you get broad exposure to half a dozen scientific disciplines. However, graduates of these degrees are least likely to need an off ramp, although these are the courses that provide medical scientists - if they haven't filtered out such people with obtuse admission criteria.

There isn't an obvious exit for PBL graduates. But I would not be surprised to see, as undergraduate numbers expand, medical graduates going into PA jobs, in the same way that law graduates become paralegals. After all, we keep hearing that they are better paid than doctors, and that they have better working conditions. They certainly get better paid than paralegals.

Well gosh. There's a surprise.

You wrote that "The young people that apply and accepted have generally always been high academic achievers who make the choice to study medicine for vocational reasons in the knowledge that they could earn more money, often more easily elsewhere". Mumsneedwine responded in classic form "All v v true. And so sad that there are apparently consultants who don't appreciate this."

Now you offer anecdotal evidence for what was a series of generalisations. But if you look for empirical evidence it is clear that you (both) were wrong.

Firstly standard entry medical degrees now have a minimum requirement of AAB. When you include courses with a foundation year this can be as low as BBC. Secondly, the Big Four accountancy firms have graduate acceptance rates of 2.5 - 2.9%, and the acceptance rate for law firms is 2%; the former pay £28k in the regions, and The Law Society recommends that trainee lawyer salaries should start at £24k. The acceptance rate for medical graduates is 100% - on a salary of £45k in the regions.

Do you think that telling junior doctors that they are academic high achievers, who can earn more money, more easily elsewhere is helpful in any way? Will it improve their job satisfaction or make it worse. Make them more or less likely to strike? Increase or decrease their confusion when they don't get what they have been led to believe they are worth?

Well her fiancée is a year younger, did a 3 year degree, and is earning well over double what she is. She has slightly better A level grades.

She wanted to be a doctor since she was about 8 years old, because she liked science and helping people. I don't think an 8 year old gives a bugger about status, pensions, or part time

@HostessTrolley Where “more easily” and doing what? They don’t have FM as we have established and you make the huge mistake of thinking other well paid jobs are easy to get. The fact remains that a doctors job is easier to get.

Remember doctors are stem grads. They haven’t done law where there are 30,000 grads every year and just a fraction get well paid training jobs. Far more difficult to access than a medical training position. Then there’s finance. How many actually get these better paid jobs? Not many and fierce competition. Applicants have done a myriad of degrees and not just one that’s, in effect, a closed shop. It’s simply not the case that all these young doctors would be earning more elsewhere. If it’s that easy, why don’t they?

Let’s be honest, grads are queuing up for medical degrees because of status and career, amazing pensions and part time opportunities. Other careers are nowhere near as flexible. Pay packages take lots of things into account and job security is another issue to be factored in. Dc actively chose to be doctors and many others wanted it too and are probably academically sound too. So what better paid jobs are they doing? And if money was the ultimate driver , why are the degrees so competitive? They are competitive for all the reasons above and stem grads are not paid more in other fields. Medical degrees give the best fiscal return of any degree. If they want a go at Magic Circle, apply. Nothing stopping them. They might actually have to meet work targets and do what they are employed to do and worry about the 20% of trainees that are let go as not good enough.

@mumsneedwine Your post of 9.53 today says in part

A level maths is not designed for people going on to study at higher level.’

I have informed you of this before and quoted the post above. If you’re having trouble finding it, let me know if you would like me to post the screen shot.

I have informed you above that A level maths most certainly is. The facts that

(1) the strongest maths degree programmes have other requirements in addition to Maths A level and (2) other degree programmes require Maths A level

are not relevant to this statement.

She's just peeved because the rest of the family are together (well, in between my own night shifts...) and she's in London alone, having sent her fiancé to his parents so he's got company and she can sleep!

All v v true. And so sad that there are apparently consultants who don't appreciate this.
Good luck to everyone working this weekend. Hope they get a coffee, lunch by 5pm and the chance to have a wee at least once per shift 😊

My d (F1) is also working 3 night shifts this weekend, in central London, on a new rotation as she moved a week ago.

She's still pondering on the strike, in her words 'I'm not that arsed about the money, it's the accessibility of jobs going forward and other work related issues, it's really bad that the BMA and the publicity machine are focussing on pay alone when to many of us the pay is a side issue'...

These threads always end up just as mudslinging. Whatever people think about grade equivalence or training/trainee quality between now and 20/30 years ago, the young people that apply and accepted have generally always been high academic achievers who make the choice to study medicine for vocational reasons in the knowledge that they could earn more money, often more easily elsewhere. The role has changed because the system and culture have changed because society has changed. Comparing doctors or their role between now and then is pretty meaningless.

And they know it will be hard work, long hours and they'll never be as wealthy as their cohort in finance or law. But they did not expect to have 25 people applying for each job, not have any other jobs to apply for when don't get into training, and work in an NHS that had been decimated for 10 years. No one is complaining about working long days or nights. They are complaining about being understaffed and being forced to work in leaky buildings with nowhere to get a cup of coffee at 2am.

For goodness sake, surely the GMC would not advocate for sub standard doctors.