Resident doctors synicsl strike again

@CurlyKoalie The hours are greatly reduced in comparison to decades ago. Don’t forget they now get overtime or time off in lieu. Never see that reported!

Rather than paying existing overworked resident doctors more, why don't they make them work less hours and use the extra money to fund more resident doctors placements to cover the hours. They might not end up as minted as they hope, but it would improve their work/ life balance and stop the disgraceful waste of medical talent where doctors can't get placements. Higher wages could then come with later experience as it does with most careers.

Here it is. Latest HESA data for 22/23. Before the doctors pay rise. The IFS found the same. Best return on any degree.

@Bjorkdidit The latest research says doctors and dentists get the best return on their degrees. You completely forgot that other degree holders have to compete with vast numbers to get the highest paid roles. Their odds will be 300:1 to get a high paying legal traineeship for example. Plus the roles are not ring fenced to law degree holders. Many degrees are considered, and their holders get the jobs too. Medicine and dentistry are ring fenced but no other high paying career is in the same way (well engineering but not as highly paid and many more doing the degrees!) I’ll dig out the research.

@UniquePinkSwan Exactly. We have total inertia and are clinging on to an outdated model devised in the 1940s. It’s poor in many areas and report after report is highlighting this but we delude ourselves that it’s world beating.

Why is it always the American system that gets mentioned? There are far better systems out there we could go to. It’s needed. The NHS is not fit for purpose and I’m sick of the cult status surrounding it

Which looks appallingly low when compared with other graduate careers, especially those that don't include distressing situations, lives at risk and shift work.

Half of MN thinks £60/70k+ is barely adequate as a graduate starting salary for law or finance, yet doctors have to work for several years to reach that level of salary.

I hope Drs do think they are so special because they are. At 18 years old, these students with outstanding A level grades choose to go into medicine. Not investment banking, insurance or accountancy but medicine. They choose a hard, rewarding but often bruising and thankless career path instead of a monied one.

They undertake six years of fairly brutal studying and hospital training before starting their medical career, with a significant amount of debt. It’s not easy and at every stage the system that should be supporting these individuals often acts against them.

The hours they work are insane, the impact on their personal lives is immense, they miss life events with friends and family because of inflexible work schedules. Unless you know or live with a doctor you honestly can’t have an insight into just how much this profession demands. Frankly, they are certifiably insane to choose this path but thank goodness they do.

The resident doctors have once again announced a 6 day strike to co incide with a bank holiday weekend

It is 7-13 April so directly after the BH weekend .
Not ideal timing but not coinciding

I know of 2 Doctors who have left UK for NZ.

My DD who works in NHS (not a Dr) says several Doctors have left the UK... she is going back to Australia this autumn.
Final straw for her was the removal of pool cars for AHP's to see rural patients, apparently they must now use their own cars, costing them money or in one case, having to buy another car... thanks Wes

Mileage rates have recently been cut too...anyone noticed petrol falling in price?

Bottom line is, if we want a functioning health service, we need to retain staff & other countries offer better salaries, far less stress and more importantly, better outcomes for patients.

When i listen to Streeting and tbh plenty of other Labour ministers, i could easily be listening to a Tory minister.

It's conditions and pay

I get it. I’ve huge empathy for the rotational location changes and competition for posts that make it very hard to plan a functional life as an early career doctor. However, as an AHP working alongside those stuck on agenda for change pay scales - I think the smarter move would be to campaign on conditions rather than pay. We’d all love restoration.

For comparison, downbanding in the NHS has had a huge impact for AHPs eroding salary, while increasing responsibility. Working privately - would quadruple my wage, half the responsibility, and reduce my working hours significantly. Each year as we face increased service cuts, to already restructured shaved down services, it’s harder to stay wanting to work/lead within the NHs.

Pay is a pull factor, but I’d happily support anything that campaigned about conditions, increasing strain on quality of care and the stress and distress of carrying risks, often without the support needed.

I don’t think people are selfish, I think they are overwhelmed - and undervalued (as are most of those working clinically in the health service).

Well you’ll be glad to hear that a large proportion of these selfish and entitled wasters can’t progress their careers because there are not enough speciality training posts to go round so they’ll be out of medicine pretty soon. Hope that makes you feel better.

What does it matter what most 23 year olds would be happy with?
Most of those 23 year olds would have done different degrees or courses so their job market would be different. Their fight is different and in different sectors.

Agree OP. They are selfish and entitled and think that they’re special just because they studied medicine. 23 year old kids with a LOT to learn who think and that they should be in mega bucks

Most 23 year olds would be happy to have a job in the current economic climate. Sick to death of their entitled whinging. Prove yourselves, and maybe you’ll earn more one day.

The problem is that today's Drs saw the profession as being well paid, respected and interesting . But since they started the long journey to being qualified, pay and conditions have been eroded, I don't think it's an attractive proposition anymore . A lot of Drs are only doing a part time job in the NHS out of compassion. They're getting the proper pay by doing aesthetics and pharma

There are plenty of options between the UK system and the US system, and most of them work much better too!

I think a package where university fees are paid for, in exchange for an agreed period of nhs service and a commitment to more training posts would serve the medical profession better.
Another 28% pay rise will not address the biggest concern ( lack of training posts). It will probably exacerbate the problem - nhs trusts will likely leave training posts unfilled, to address the deficit the pay rises will create in the staffing budget.

Well I'm a consultant and I'll vote to strike if we are balloted.

We were promised pay restoration 2 years ago. Once again we have a below inflation offer and the real kicker - one that is 1.5% below the uplift MPs got.

If we are all in it together let's all be in it together!

(And MPs didn't suffer the same level of pay erosion that the profession have. You can argue about the choice of metric and the extent of it, but there has been substantial pay erosion and working conditions are terrible).

Well I'm an 'ambulance driver', but prefer to use my protected title of 'Paramedic', and I support the Junior Doctor strikes.
Their pay relative to there working conditions, with huge responsibility (particularly at night) and constant upheaval due to having to relocate for training post, often very long distances are not commensurate.

Oh and you have to fill in insurance forms in A and E to see if you get any care .

Of if they all go and work for private health care and we end up with an American system , where poor and uninsured don't get treatment

I also earn more than them doing a significantly less important job, 9-5, Monday to Friday.

They are undervalued and I would get some satisfaction from seeing the reaction if they did all go to places like Australian where they are valued.