Resident doctors synicsl strike again

They have increased under Labour but we still don’t have anywhere near enough places in universities to keep up with the numbers of drs needed over the coming years. Not when you take into account how long it takes each person to be trained to a high enough level to replace retiring senior colleagues. The wastage of people who quit/ emigrate. People balancing families and opting to work 80% or lower. People choosing to do mostly private. People off long term sick.

Regularly there are rota gaps.

The comment about other European wages wasn’t to say UK trained doctors go to practise in other European countries. It was about our weight to attract high quality doctors from other countries to fill our gaps. We are not as attractive anymore with the wages and conditions NHS has to offer. So we don’t attract the best from abroad in a way we maybe used to be more successful at. We are not paying competitive wages in comparison to the rest of the west.

@Marchesman Yes. I do think this is what is happening. I’m beginning to think they need to tackle the union in this situation too. We are being held to ransom and it’s deeply uncaring. I think many are not suited to the role. However as the training is lengthy, what should they do first? Try investment banking perhaps? Or be a hot shot lawyer? These medical students have beaten the odds in their field but it’s way less competitive than other fields!

I am in favour of doctors being paid more and certainly in favour of better conditions for all those who work in the NHS.

However, I do wish we had a system where people opted to become doctors at an age older than 17. For two reasons. 1. To ensure they do really want to be doctors and have the right attributes once matured, and 2. To stop them thinking they are the cleverest of the clever because they beat the odds to get into medical school when a whole load of other clever young people didn't even want that option. (Or maybe it's just the parents who think that 😐)

About twenty years ago, instead of recruiting for academic ability and everything that goes with it, we took steps in the interests of "Diversity, Equality and Inclusion" to "include" in the medical workforce a "diverse" group of people who were more representative of the general population.

Unfortunately, a large proportion of the general population is unsuited to a career in medicine. So, by the end of medical school now, more than 80% of medical students are less than satisfied with the idea of working for the NHS, and at the end of F2 more than 50% don't apply for specialist training.

Those that stick with it are better paid than any other graduates by degree type, and have greater job security. But there are enough junior doctors who are never going to be satisfied in medicine to fuel the BMA's strikes right up to the point that doctors' strikes are made illegal.

Nope its a local outpatient/day surgery hospital with no A&E or morning rounds nor would any of that explain the lack of notes or extra 1.5 hours in her room seeing nobody

@1ladybird We have increased medical school places by quite a significant number. Last years grads did find it difficult to find specialist placements because it’s cheaper to employ doctors from less well paid countries. It’s not remotely difficult to recruit them whilst our home trained doctors go to English speaking countries. They don’t go to India or even France. There are probably enough doctors being trained but that’s not the end of their training and hospitals find it cheaper not to employ them. The government has recognised this in the pay deal.

The problem with medicine is it’s an international job market.

As a nation the UK/NHS doesn’t pay internationally competitive salaries.

It’s all good and well for people to say ‘it’s more than I earn’ or ‘they don’t deserve that’ etc and hold those opinions.

It doesn’t change the rules of supply and demand. We need more drs and they are not coming!

We also don’t train enough drs in UK universities to staff it ourselves. So we have to recruit internationally. But we’re not offering competitive salaries. There the loop continues.

The last couple of decades staff we can recruit from abroad now tend to come from poorer countries ie Pakistan, Nigeria. Lots of these doctors are now choosing not to come to UK and going elsewhere in Europe as they can get paid more in most other western countries.

This is all doctors, resident and consultant.
If you google most types of drs/ grades - they get paid more elsewhere.

ie orthopaedic surgeon. £110-£120k for a consultant in uk. That takes at least 10 years of work as a resident dr to get to, plus 5 years uni, plus costly exams. In Germany, France, Holland, Denmark etc those drs are paid £300k ish (USA £500k+) Just one example.
UK is the ‘poor man’ these days.

25 years ago a consultant would be able to afford decent house/ life style/ holidays and private school for couple kids. In exchange for their skills.

No chance now. So the landscape has changed and people are not attracted to the profession. It’s a tough job. Looks like people are voting with their feet.

European (not US) insurance based model may be the only way to solve it all. Then they will get paid similarly to other Western European countries .

You always read on here how high people’s salaries are… like 100k upwards. Yet doctors are greedy who earn half that. I’m not saying the strikes are right or wrong.

But as someone who works amongst them.

We are losing so many to countries who will pay them properly. What will happen? Immigrant doctors aren’t comming ( it’s shit don’t blame them!) and many resident/junior ones are leaving…

Your Dr could have been late due to ward rounds and understaffing what you see in your appointment is the tip of the iceberg. My DS was working in A And E with a long backlog. What people in the waiting room don't see is the urgent cases, CPR, knife attack victims all receiving urgent care . The system is letting down Drs anc underpaying Under resourcing them , and not having progression in place

I'm going to admit my bias here having had recently had a very bad experience in the NHS

Whilst I agree that retention is an issue its not the biggest problem that the NHS has, that i would say is lack of organisational skills in both staff and systems causing wasted appointments, time and money.
I had an appointment on Monday it was the 1st appointment of the day, the Dr didn't turn up until 30 mins after my appointment time (with coat, bag and costa) then didn't bother seeing anyone for another 1.5 hours and then couldn't do anything when I saw her (2hours late) because she hadn't ordered my surgical records so come back next month.
If you look at my experience clearly the system is at fault as my records should have been on the computer as my surgery was done by her colleagues in that hospital but it doesn't work that way apparently. Knowing how the system works and having had my rereferral for over a year somebody should have requested them before my appointment. But most importantly the dr should have arrived before her 1st appointment instead of 30 mins late and shouldn't have then taken 1.5 hours to get organised for her 1st patient.
Now there could have been a valid reason for taking so long to get set up (none i can think of as its a simple office type setup) but again it's a system failure to have patients waiting around for 2 hours for a simple consultation due to the Dr not being ready or on time (if a consult runs over or there's an emergency fair enough).
Many of the newer drs seem to feel that they and their time is more important than that or their patients or the tax payers and these strikes and pay demands when they have pension packages that most couldn't dream of is just another symptom of that attitude

Posted prematurely.

To continue:

I suppose that at one level it is sweet when fond parents think their DC can do anything. At another, this attitude encourages those DC, even good, solid students who could have one type or another of interesting career, to attend university with no idea of what it takes to excel.

That’s fine, because not everyone needs to excel. But if you want a career in investment banking, a training contract, employment in the Big Four, a meaningful PhD, to build a successful independent firm, make scientific discoveries, create art, etc, you do.

I cannot see that any of these things is less demanding than medicine. I’ve said above that I see the point of compensating those who are responsible for human life, but otherwise these careers, including medicine, and others, each have their own varying rewards. There will always be economic trade offs for the security of working in the public sector.

The word “vocation” is often brought up. Vocation is what keeps you dedicated (and the fear of errors etc), but T&Cs and pay need to be in line with the top professional status.

@Pineneedlesincarpet plenty of other people have benefits packages that rival even experienced doctors (and those of the experienced doctors you see now are more generous than the ones that the current crop of resident doctors get and those of mid career at present will ever equal those who are currently retired).

My generation, however, didn't pay killer tuition fees. I came out with a modest student loan that I had cleared within 10 years of graduation. The way student loans are currently structured is that the costs just keep ballooning.

25 years post graduation I'm the poor relation in my social circle as a more than full time NHS consultant. My social circle are my university peers. Virtually all the non doctors outearn me - they work in law, finance, food supply, marketing. I have better or equivalent A-levels. I did an additional two years at university. I did two sets of postgraduate exams post qualification (that I paid for out of my income) as I'm a sub-sub specialist.

In my twenties I missed several friends weddings. I went on precisely one hen do and I have worked more than 50% of christmas periods which due to geography means I often don't see my family at all.

I am still working overnight regularly.

Quite honestly I'm fed up and fearful for what future healthcare for me will look like. Lots of my colleagues have started paying for private insurance.

I agree with you, @OhDear111

’Investment banking’ is a typical career goal of highly able students. Few have any idea what it entails, and many fewer will realise it.

They do not earn £14 an hour. The starting salary is over £38k, based on a 40 hour week it’s more like £18ph. Year two goes up to £44k. It’s not a massive amount, but that’s in your mid 20’s, the rewards later in their careers are good. After all it’s a vocation, just like many public sector employees, it’s not just about the money. I agree that their working conditions should be better and the whole training system needs reform.

Good postdoctoral jobs are much more competitive than this. Lectureships can be insane.

Although the UK is presently considered a somewhat less desirable destination than it was, so competition is abating slightly.

Why don’t they strike on just that and that alone then? They’d get loads of public sympathy. This is what I just cannot understand. Why doom your strike by throwing in a whine about pay, which most people think is really tone deaf. Whose pay has kept up with inflation since the global financial crisis? Not many.

With the government's monthly borrowing hitting £14 billion in February, £13 billion of which to service the £3 trillion national debt, where is the money going to come from for our schools, hospitals, and warships, let alone our beleaguered doctors?

That’s a choice you made, and a bonkers one in my opinion.

Was it half of post foundation years doctors had no jobs this year following completion of FY2, or was it more?

The competition for employment is huge, and consultant jobs are not achieved by the majority, so irrelevant to this discussion.

Would you like them to all be fully private then?

There are so many hours in the week. They are either benefiting from the NHS pension that they also contribute to- see my correction above- or they are working privately and have the same self employed risks as anyone who is self employed as you details.

They are not benefiting from both systems fully in the same 40 hour full time week.

A 30:1 applicants:jobs is common nowadays in medicine.