AIBU to worry Business Studies GCSE may affect future university choices?

I wouldn't worry too much about Business Studies GCSE affecting university choices the subjects universities flag as "non-preferred" are almost always at A-level, not GCSE. admissions tutors for Economics or Architecture are looking at GCSE grades as a measure of general academic ability, not subject selection. a strong grade in Business Studies will help his average just as much as anything else

that said, here's the honest picture for his likely uni routes

for Economics the GCSE choices matter very little — what will matter enormously is doing Maths A-level (ideally Further Maths for top universities) and getting a strong grade. his GCSE foundation in Maths is the thing to watch, not whether he picked Business or Spanish

for Architecture again A-level choices matter far more, and most architecture courses want to see Art or Design at A-level alongside something academic. his current GCSE list is actually very solid for this route

on the Business vs CS debate, given ADHD and the motivation factor, enjoyment genuinely matters a passionate student in Business will outperform a disengaged student in CS every time, and the grade difference will show. CS GCSE is notoriously hard to get top marks in without genuine interest

his current choices (English x2, Maths, triple science, History, Geography, PE) are already a very strong core. Business as the last option is perfectly fine

Also just in case it's useful when he gets to revision time Kingsbridge Education and Save My Exams are both really worth bookmarking. Kingsbridge in particular has great quality resources across most of his subjects including Business, History and the sciences, and their predicted papers are well reviewed. Save My Exams is excellent for topic-by-topic practice questions mapped to the exact spec. Both are much more focused and exam-relevant than just working through a textbook

Sorry, wall of text! One key thing is: YP should do GCSEs in things they're interested in and will do well in. That's the only advice!

I worked in admissions at a decent RG once upon a time, and since have spent 20 years as a university counsellor/advisor/coordinator in schools in the UK and around the world. Now I do it privately.
20ish years ago, there were lists of preferred or facilitating A Level subjects, and a list of 'vocational' or 'less rigorous' subjects, which were to be avoided if aspriations were high, or sometimes one was OK for the top unis if the other 2.5 (in the time of AS levels) were from the preferred list. Business, media, PE, psychology, sociology home languages etc were all on the second list. Those lists were scrapped about 15 years ago, and I've worked with 1000s of students who've gone on to great success at all the RGs, amazing non-RG options, etc with any subject combination, business included. Anyone saying otherwise has old information or, in the uni example above, has a vestige of that policy still at the back of their minds, even if its no longer enforced. Obviously, that doesn't mean that some admissions tutors won't also have that same old fashioned belief however, but this year I've worked with a student taking BM, history and french admitted to HSPS at Cambridge, another with business, maths, FM and geography to LSE, and another with sociology, psychology and history interviewed for law at Oxford (unsuccessful then though).

Proviso- LSE does warn against taking business and economics A Levels due to the overlap. I thought UCL did as well, but can't find it on the website.

What's really interesting is that today, I was checking the updated requirements at Imperial. For many of their engineering courses they now actively promote business, requiring Astar in chemistry, A in maths and A in bio/phys/FM/econ/business studies for chemical engineering for example. Screenshot below. How many students will that rule out because they've been told to do something 'more academic' as their third? Not loads as three sciences is most common for Imperial applicants, but some.

Finally, I wrote this whole comment about A Levels because ultimately, thats what unis care about beyond the already stated maths and English. When it says GCSE profile considered, it means how many 9/8/7/6 etc depending on the uni, and the occasional niche factor like someone taking art, DT, dance, drama and music but then appplying for a demanding STEM course.

It makes me laugh how sniffy some people can be over GCSE's like business or religious studies, which are, of course, perfectly acceptable areas of study.

For what it's worth my DC owns a business and is in the top 5% percentile of earners in the country, I work at Oxbridge and am frankly nowhere near that.

Business is what fuels the economy so it's a good idea to have an understanding of how it works.

For the people saying that how business operates is irrelevant to teenagers I would argue the opposite. It's certainly no less abstract to them than learning to book a hotel room in French or learning about circle theorems for example.

GCSEs are a slog-put yourselves in your children's shoes. It's advisable to let them learn subjects that they are interested in, not only will it be less of a battle, they are likely to perform better.

It’s not that deep. Seriously, calm down. Genuinely shocked parents act like this to be honest at what should be their child’s choice.

It is astonishing.

My son is about to do his business GCSE. He’s doing well in it. Doing economics at A-Level.

What exactly are you panicking for?

DS1 did GCSE Business Studies, also at A level, along with Economics and Geography, and is now at Leeds Uni studying BSc Economics

Yes its quite ironic, given its reputation for difficulty, that in certain exam boards if you choose the decision maths option, half of further maths A level can be a slightly duller and extended version of the Comp Sci GCSE!

(I say duller as you have to hand trace the algorithms you learn rather than writing the logic and getting the computer to execute the steps but I hope your son enjoyed it)

I tried to add a post earlier but couldn't for some reason.

So to sum up what I wrote – @JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOff thanks for the update. To me that significantly modifies what you said before – that business was on an "excluded" list but now it seems it is not. So tbh even if a YP is applying to your uni to study econ and has business GCSE, it’s not a given that that grade will not count towards their best eight.

There are a number of HE and secondary professionals on this thread, and none of them apart from JohhnyMcGrath have said the OP is right, that business is not counted by unis. We have two PPs who afaik are not involved in education (apols if I am wrong there) who are offering vague hearsay "a friend of my DC's said their GCSEs didn't count at the uni" – no details of which GCSE, which uni, which course have been given despite numerous requests for the info.

So I am taking that with a big pinch of salt.

@Y9Options I reckon your DS will be fine with business GCSE, especially if he will enjoy it more and get a better grade than if he does Spanish. All the best to him.

My son took it and found some of it to be a good grounding for further maths A level.

Learning is never wasted.

Well the skills and knowlege acquired, certainly will be far from defunct. And if the new GCSE doesn't have a good technical foundation I imagine all the private schools will switch to the IGCSE instead.

@AstonScrapingsNameChange yes! Indeed.

I think some people are getting confused between:

a university not counting the subject of BS when asking for x GCSEs at y grade, ie excluding that Gcse,

and

excluding pupils who have BS GCSE whatever their other grades are, just because (which would be bonkers).

Its the GCSE which is (apparently) sometimes excluded, not the kids who have taken it.

OP I definitely think contacting the institutions you're interested in is the way forward because it's clearly not a universal rule.

Yes I agree. It really depends,and I have seen this many times, occasional universities don’t like the two but that is related to the choice of course. I Economics degrees vary tremendously depending on maths content

My ds did both Business and Econ A level - knowing that this would be problematic if he wanted to do Econ at uni (but more so that he wasn't doing Maths A level) - which he didn't, and knew that he was going to apply for Business Management at university so the school and everyone were fine about it. He really enjoyed both, got As in both, got offers from all 5 unis including RGs and is now doing Business Management at Southampton, which has been great for him as a not particularly academic kid, more practical (and interested in earning money).

People are snobby about Business Management courses but actually it has some of the best graduate recruitment stats and highest starting salaries (esp compared to STEM). Not up there with the top Econ/Maths grads I'm sure but not every kid is high functioning in Maths (you either have that brain, or you don't). I work for a software company and most, if not all the grads we hire to be SDRs and AEs (sales guys) have done Business or BM at uni (often not at RG or one of the acceptable alternatives shock! horror!) and they are mostly able to pay off their student loans in the first couple of years and most are earning mid to high 6 figures after a couple of promotions before they are thirty. Not a bad outcome for most.

I teach business. I have been er known a university not recognise it?

I also teach computer science. (It's really dull tbh id you aren't completely invested in it )
Buisness is a really good course. Super interesting.(Of course there are elements of the exam that are tedious as in all exams )

*For some reason I can't edit my typos !

Hi @titchy yes and I haven't said that.

I'm not going to discuss my institution for obvious reasons. I post on here about some really personal stuff and no, I don't generally post on the HE or the Academic Cmn Rm boards because it's a bit of a busman's holiday and I am here as a mum, not a prof.

I also think HE admissions are much more flexy and opaque than some here think. I have worked at 2 RGs and a post 92. I'm on my current institution's central admissions cttee. There are tensions between what senior professional services colleagues want ( our COO or head of admissions) and academics.

Talking generally here, the interest of "the University" is to get as many good students as they can, where they can. A course like Econ is popular and attracts good students. It helps support the whole institution. So somebody like the head of admissions would like to expand it, and if that means slightly dropping tariff or relaxing requiremts, they're okay with that if it doesn't impact league tables etc.

Meanwhile, the head of dept who's been here for 25y and whose team is actually doing the teaching has a different POV. They might prefer a smaller cohort of 3A* students. They may also have a degree of leftover snobbery!

Admissions policy is often a tug between these opposing forces and in practice, some depts will want to retain control and use academic judgement much more actively in the admissions process.

Making an educated guess at your institution you say:

‘For GCSEs, you’ll need several GCSE grades at A (or 7) and A* (or 8-9).

As a minimum, we ask for GCSE English Language and Mathematics grades at B (6) or higher. We’ll also consider your overall GCSE subject profile.

A-levels
AAA with an A in Mathematics

We also consider your AS grades, if available.
See subject combinations regarding Further Mathematics requirements.’

A kid with 10 at grades 7+ isn’t going to be turned down because one of them was BS.

Hi @Y9Options returning as promised having grabbed an Econ colleague in the gym this morning! (That wasn't why I was there 😁)

So we have minimum institutional requirements (GCSE 6 maths and English) but beyond that, different subjects that are regarded as particularly selective can put in additional higher requirements. Econ for us is one of those subjects, and I think would be elsewhere too.

Our Econ entry on the website says you need "a strong set of GCSEs with majority at 7/8/9. We also consider your overall GCSE subject profile." My colleague who teaches on the prog says there used to be a formal "banned list" but this is no longer the case, however subjects that she thinks would be regarded less favourably for Econ are those in art/ design, business studies, film/ media, and religious studies. They are not banned but they might discount them from the overall profile.

However as before, what probably matters more is GCSE maths score (ideally 8 or 9) and following that, choice of A levels.

There are few other posters working in unis on the thread…. We’ve all said otherwise, and @JohnnyMcGrathSaysFuckOffhas not provided any link that supports what they are saying, and I don’t recognise the name (though that means nothing) as a regular contributor to HE threads. So perhaps not everyone is who they say they are. People lie on-line - who knew.

Uni admissions is NOT black box. It is open and transparent. Unis are NOT (handful of exceptions - largely lower tier) private institutions. They’re public. And regulated to within an inch of their lives.

So far the only evidence that we have that BS and PE are not suitable at GCSE level is one anecdote from a parent who knows someone who didn’t get into Ox and had one of these subjects, and a school which passed off its own non-examined curriculum as a GCSE qualification.

Evidence people - ask for it! If it’s not forthcoming, think about why not.

GCSE advice for the potentially uni-bound: do at least 8 full subjects, make sure Maths and English are up to scratch, after the compulsory ones are chosen pick ones your yp enjoys and will do well in, keep an eye on what GCSEs are needed for likely A level/L3 courses. Dont sweat it…

Edit to add: do people really think there are huge teams of admissions staff going through thousands of application to ferret out an erroneous GCSE in PE? Do you know how many admissions (and other) staff have been made redundant recently? It’s laughable this would happen.

I should have said: I have never seen any university that has a list of preferred GCSE option subjects - English and maths requirements are obviously common but that is not what people are talking about here.

I think the OP must have mistaken GCSEs and A-levels. There are some unis with preferred A-level lists, and some may have Business on it. I have never seen any university that has a list of preferred GCSE subjects. (And I personally think that would be insane, given that everyone has to do a core of academic GCSE subjects anyway!)

As for "school-directed" subjects, I think previous posters may mean something like Sevenoaks School Certificates (although I think those can be entered on UCAS) or Bedales Assessed Courses. It is pretty clear that these are not GCSEs so if the school lied to you about that, you need to take it up with the school. But I am surprised because I actually got the impression that both schools are quite proud of their bespoke courses and advertise the fact, certainly on their websites.

I agree that it’s a shame it’s not offered in more schools. DS’s school doesn’t offer it.

DD did 10 very academic subjects plus DT. She loved having a subject that used a different part of her brain and she got to use her hands. It really helped her avoid burn out once all the intensive revision kicked in. It’s a great subject for those who are not “arty”.

My DD has just done her options and was unsure between economics GCSE and Business Studies. I steered her towards Business studies because I think it gives a rounder view of business, indeed if I hadn’t done it I wouldn’t have learnt about the subject area I chose to make my career. If she wants to do economics she can do it at A level but at least she will have a basic understanding then of what marketing, HR etc is which in my view is more useful in the longer term.

Yes, I think there might be quite a lot of private school hearsay going on here!
DD did dance and psychology for gcse which will probably cause much pearl clutching on here (Alleyns do do dance btw!). I am not seeing this as a problem later on.
The only GCSE issue that seems to occur is grade of English or maths required.
DS hit every grade from 4-9 at gcse and got all his econ offers apart from Oxford (not really a surprise!). I think the maths and further maths and A* predictions (and maybe state school?) were the big factors in his offers.

He has chosen 10 GCSEs, 8 of which are really academic. It will be no problem for Economics. Lots of universities only look at the top 8 GCSEs. If he does want to do Architecture and he wants to go somewhere selective, he may well need to produce a portfolio which will be very much easier if he has done Art GCSE and ideally Art A-level. Some of the courses specify that they prefer art A-level but not all. Some of them don’t ask for a portfolio if you are doing Art A level but do ask for it if you are not.