How many kids have left the school? (VAT)

No idea. Everyone who I know has kids who are doing great. My lovely dd certainly is

@Lameelephant - private schooling boomed because grammar schools were closed. Now they want to curtail independent schools by anomalous taxation. There are probably a lot of people who have academic kids who would like grammar schools brought back. I do not think they will get rid of the existing ones nor bring back more.
I think there are now more pressure groups in the independent sector pushing back and also may be in the grammar sector. Which is a good thing, as ComprehensiveFuture and one way of thinking was trying to dominate the educational narrative. And now they cannot anymore which is more balanced.

I don’t think anyone is saying it’s a good idea that the Government close grammar schools, it’s just obviously something that will be on their tall poppy list. Attacking grammar and independent schools alongside instigating one size fits all soviet style schooling has been a feature of every Labour Government.

I wonder what has changed for Wales? I lived there 20 years ago and at the time it struck me that standards were in fact higher. It was common for people to take 12, 13 or 14 GCSEs rather than the standard 10.

And how is that going for Wales @DarkForces? According to the IFS, Wales is underperforming educationally vis a vis England, NI and Scotland.

Why is Wales underperforming?

https://ifs.org.uk/news/welsh-health-and-educational-systems-are-underperforming

We've managed it in wales. There's no grammar schools at all here.

After reading the whole thread, I’m struck by how vast—no, how boundless—the sense of entitlement some parents of state school children seem to have over the lives, money, and choices of private school parents. Isn’t it enough that private school parents help fund state schools?

It happens in every thread—and there’s at least one a day—where parents argue over their choices for their children’s education. State and private school parents face off in their own corners of a virtual UFC ring, or, as my children say, like fandoms in a fan war. My inner child can’t help but laugh, picturing homeschooling parents certain they’ve nailed it—until they inevitably end up in their own corner, debating with the others over who’s best.

If I couldn’t keep my children in private school, I wouldn’t choose a state school if other options were available. The days when education was simply a choice between state or private are long gone. I have friends who homeschool and have had great experiences, blending online schools, private tutors, and extracurriculars—it’s like school, but with its own unique twists. I’ve seen plenty of articles about the growth of homeschooling and the expansion of its communities. It’s definitely becoming more popular and accepted, though I think it works best for children who naturally fit that style—it’s not for everyone. People often wonder what my friends do for work if they homeschool, assuming they can’t have jobs. But with remote and hybrid work, it’s much easier now. Many let their children work independently on their computers alongside private tutors. The cost of online school, tutors, and activities depends on each family’s budget and preferences. For those who just want the essentials, it’s so much cheaper than private school that it’s hardly worth comparing, and even for those who go all out, it can still cost less than private schools.

@Lameelephant - they would not “shut” down schools though, all that could happen is making selection at 11 plus going forward illegal and I think would have to be discussed in Parliament. A lot of the grammar areas like Kent Bucks etc are more Con strongholds, I really do not think it would be easy to do. Also with these May elections looming and likely massive defeats, seems highly unlikely at this point. Bucks for example gets a lot of rich people moving there for the grammars. If you got rid of selection, it may be that house prices would crash. There are plenty of people whose kids do not get into grammars, but many will be concerned about the value of their homes.

That was also the case when they attempted to shut them down in the 70s. I don’t think you can really expect Labour to be rational.

Sevenoaks and Tunbridge Wells are West Kent. Further down into Kent, you have deprivation. It is has nothing to do with the grammar system per se.
Bucks and West Kent that are both grammar areas have some of the highest national attainment levels.

It’s not like that in Kent-which I don’t think is the biggest selective LEA.

“I think Labour will come after the remaining grammars again anyway.”

I do not think so as in the league tables, there are lots of grammar schools competing right at the top with private schools. And if they remove selection, then private schools will dominate the top entirely. And Labour won’t like that.

I think Labour will come after the remaining grammars again anyway.

@CurlewKate in privileged areas that are all grammar, like eg Tunbridge Wells or Sevenoaks, the supposed “other” school is absolutely fine these days. There are top sets, there is a grammar stream etc etc - it all essentially boils down to children from advantaged homes in nice areas do well - and by that I mean, reach their potential.

The problem with talking about “the grammar option” is that everyone assumes their child will get into the grammar school. Nobody seems to consider the possibility of their child going to “the other” school. The one that by definition has no top set and a high % of disadvantaged, lower ability and SEND children.

“Your post just proves my point - you have a grammar option which is best for your kids. If you only had some sinking state schools available vs decent private, would you still chose state out of principle?“

@nearlylovemyusername - well I live in London so there are no “sink” options and there is always a way to get into a good state school somehow. Similar with the NHS, you can change GPs, keep going back, try a different angle etc.
And I would have never sent my kids to an ultra “strict” option either. Don’t agree with that on principle.
I am not at all opposed to private education, I have said this many times. Each to their own. However, personally I would not choose it. For a start, I think I would find it awkward with teachers and being a customer etc. Yes my DC got used to help the teachers out in state primary, but then there is some gratitude from staff towards parents who help out, do the homework, are involved. And I enjoy being valued by the teaching staff.
I think even in what you would have called a sink option, as long as there were sets, the staff would have treated my kids and us well.

This is not true in my area. Pre the abolition of the local grammar schools, the private and public schools only got the 11+ failures and didn't come close to the excellent academic results of the grammars. Once the grammars were gone at the end of the 1970s, the independent schools started to improve their results and became more competitive, and their academic reputation completely changed over the next 20 years.

I know a lot of families like this. They are ‘opposed’ to private schools but then buy 2m+ houses in leafy villages that are conveniently in ultra-strict catchments to several amazing state primary and secondary schools. Several of these ‘state’ schools have swimming pools, sports ground, state of the art science / tech labs, all funded by parents. I know of one school whose entire computer lab was funded by a well known bank because a senior exec sent his kids there. They had the latest macbooks & staff from their IT department would volunteer to run coding workshops. Yet 2 miles down the road was a primary school in a broader catchment that was ‘needs improvement’ and had to sell off land to make enough money to renovate it’s buildings.

Its perfectly possible if you live in an expensive area with great state schools and your kids at NT / popular / sporty / confident / academically sound. Sadly that is very often not the case hence the need for alternatives which the state system seems unable to provide.

I don’t really have a problem with parents claiming they choose schools out of principle, I have a problem with them supporting limiting other parent’s education choices ‘out of principle’.

Both of those scenarios would help me out financially but I don’t think they will happen, sadly.

Your post just proves my point - you have a grammar option which is best for your kids. If you only had some sinking state schools available vs decent private, would you still chose state out of principle?

I didn’t choose private school for the academics. I chose it because having my kids in a private primary makes my life easier — they do extracurricular sports / swimming / instruments & offer aftercare, holiday clubs and breakfast care. So the kids, for not much more than a full-time nursery, can have all their activities in once place.

For academics our focus is on reading, building concentration, and building habits. For this I use external sports, we do art at home, and I dip into Kumon as required.

Historically, most private schools admitted pupils on academic ability. I recall pupils being forced to leave because their results were too low (yes that's terrible)

But now, many private schools are scrabbling to fill places and they accept anyone who can afford to pay. And that dilutes the academic standard

The academic results at our local private school are no better than the local state school. The sports provision is a little better but doesn't justify the school fees. The school trips are good but v expensive and we can replicate these ourselves far cheaper. We could have afforded private but didn't feel it offered good value for money

But mostly, all school rolls are falling due to falling pupil numbers. This was predicted years ago