How many kids have left the school? (VAT)

Gosh, my heart absolutely breaks for you poor, impoverished private school parents. You’ve really got it bad!

It’s not bizarre? it’s not fixed at 7% of children. It’s paid on the activity of non tax payer funded full time education not a special percentage group of ‘other’ children who you happen not to like . It’s your children, my children, everyone’s children. You’ve been wound up, convinced a group of children are responsible and basically been conned.

I think taxing any form of adult or child education is morally wrong, whether it's maths on a Tuesday morning or Theatre on a Friday night. Learning should not be taxed.

I went to a state primary and private secondary school (although not one of the super expensive ones) so I've seen both. My kids are at state schools but have had private tuition in the past to make up for poor teaching. We're lucky to live in a nice place where the state options for secondary are "good".

Personally, I think most of the "networking" type of advantages only apply to a very few schools.

Where's the line anyway? Posh private school - tax if you learn there.
Private maths lessons?
Music lessons?
Sports coaching?
Dance lessons?

All give advantages above what's provided by state schools. Should we be trying to discourage people by taxing them?

You're such a bad faith poster.

The point is Private education grants advantages over state which we both know you know is a fact.

I’m sending my 4th child state this September. His older siblings are all at a large independent day school. The money we had put aside to send him has gone (or will go) on VAT for the older 3 that are already there. The bit of extra money we’ll have left over we will get a private tutor. I’m very sad for him that he won’t get to go to the same school as his brothers due to changed goal posts and get all the extra curriculars they have benefitted from on tap but I’m not worried about the actual education. We are in catchment for and have a place at the best state school in our city, results are good and as I said we can pay for a tutor. I don’t think you choose private school for the better quality of teacher - the school we wanted him to go to is highly selective which is why the results are good. My local Facebook page would indicate that people that historically would have got a waiting list place at said school are being told by admissions that they are not expecting as much movement this year (historically has over offered to account for parents going private). He got in so should also be able to get great results but I feel like my choice has been taken away for ideological reasons rather than because it will actually improve standards in state schools. I think if it hadn’t been brought in with quite so much speed people like me might have been able to plan around it but the extra VAT cost for 3 children is around another £15k a year which is difficult to conjure up out of no where when not expecting it.

Yes, I did know that. I wouldn’t support a 20% tax on state school children either.

Education definitely gives children an advantage, having independent options means a better chance of getting the best for a particular child. Nobody would go for it with a Labour government, but I’d support widening independent options so that more children can get involved maybe through tax breaks as they do in Europe. Closing down education options because they’re too successful just seems ridiculous to me.

@SALaw Your beliefs are correct regarding few independent school closures.

I posted the reports and data upthread, but hey other PP’s don’t let statistics and accurate data get in the way of the political blame game. Just ignore the facts.

Nobody is saying they don’t. Why try and attempt to paint the state school children as victims in some way when they are not the ones being forced out of their schools? There’s more than enough demand for Drs without us having to close successful schools that produce a higher net proportion of Drs.
If you want independent school options closed then just say so, don’t pretend it’s for any other reason than ideology,

You do know great doctors come from state educated children too?

Do you disagree that private education is a luxury service that grants advantages to children?

The tax is on the child, all be it who pays the fees, not the schools. It is you who are conflating the two .

We are the kind of people in the margins of being able to afford private school in the past - if we had less children/cheaper house/grandparents support. We have got as far as looking around on a couple of occasions.

Regardless of VAT, we would absolutely never consider it now. Our mortgage went up massively due to rate changes, our council tax is now obscene (really really ridiculous), our food shop is out of control, our dc play a sport where training and competing fees have hugely increased, dh bonus scheme has been modified (and he doesn't get it anymore), the fees for the private school near us have gone up as have things like the coach fees (thousands) and trip costs.

Many families are being priced out of private schools - more through CoL increases and wage depreciation than solely due to vat. Couple that with plummeting birth rates and increased Home Ed and the customer pool is shrinking fast.

School based sixth forms are closing en masses due to the huge variety of post 16 qualifications now available at colleges that schools can't offer.

No. Tall poppy syndrome would be attempting to cut down those who succeed, in the context of the pp I responded to who thinks taxing children’s education will stop these kids ‘getting all the best jobs’ as if limiting education options will in some way help anyone. Crabs in a bucket, attempting to pull each other down. It’s core Labour. Like o say goes straight out the window, when someone needs a Dr

You are conflating private schools with all children’s education for self interest and potential political dogma.

I was going to respond to this but @SapphOhNo has done it for me. I'll just add that former state school pupils make just as good doctors as former private school pupils.

Well I'm not lying. I am hundreds of miles from London. The school I pay for doesn't have amazing facilities because its old and its costs a bloody fortune to maintain. But it does have small classes, amazing pastoral care and a huge amount of flexibility to allow kids to work in a way that makes it possible for them to be in mainstream education. I live in an ex council semi that cost less than 150k. It makes perfect sense if you don't assume that being out of the SE is unthinkable.

Then my child would be in that 7%.

It's only the children in private schools that are included.

Trying to say it's for all children is bizarre.

And it's not just VAT. In some ways, that's the least of it.

The indy schools also lost relief from business rate taxes and, like many other businesses, had to restructure their finances to accomodate the increase in NI contributions. I think these, especially the business taxes, have hit schools' finances much harder, even the strong ones. One bursar reckoned these other factors had added £1million to the school's budget.

So when an indy school closes, I think VAT was only a part of the financial story.

And PPs are correct that the low/decreasing birthrate also plays a part.

It applies to all children not 7% of them, what’s so difficult to understand? Just go and put your child in a non state school and you’ll be paying a 20% tax. People nip and out of independent education, maybe for GCSEs or a levels, being bullied, specialist help, receive scholarships or bursaries. No child is exempt from education tax, no child. You can take the tax payer funded allocation snd go where you’re told and or pay 20% tax to fund your own child education. This is a fact, if you don’t like it then stop defending it.

My child is in y7 in private and her year is under half the size of the y10 there.

1 in 4 children in her year has left since September or is planning to by the end of the year. I don’t know their reasons but it is very worrying.

Do you really think kids going to private school are inherently smarter "taller poppies"? Or is it just that they’re given more resources, smaller classes, better networks and a head start that others don’t get. That’s not merit, that’s advantage. And calling any pushback “tall poppy syndrome” is just a convenient way to avoid engaging with the fact that the system itself reinforces inequality

Pay your taxes on your luxury advantage-granting services.

LOL no it doesn’t make sense. Children’s education has always been tax free, it’s just emotive use of language to try to try and convince people that some 6 year old girls in boaters are in some way stealing from them.

This never makes sense.

DH and I earn well (pay HR tax and can't claim CB) but would need at least £20k from post tax salary per child to pay for private. That would be for a mediocre private school with no amazing facilities hundreds of miles from London. Houses and mortgages are not in anyway cheap unfortunately.

We may have been able to do it for one child but never 2 (or the 3 we have).

We both come from families where private schools were the norm a generation and 2 back - grandparents who were doctors, barristers, head teachers. None of our extended family (all of whom have good solid jobs with decent pay) can afford private for their own dc.

You fundamentally misunderstand. Is this deliberate?

It's a tax on private schools. 7% of children. It's not a tax on education.

Care to link to these court papers?

Yes, in my town most of the closures started to ramp up after 2010. Many have merged rather than closed. None have actually closed since the VAT.

you mean they'll take the higher paying jobs and perpetuate the inequality - oh yes, such a great deal for everyone else

I think this is real crux of people who support education taxation, it’s tall poppy syndrome. It’s the mistaken belief that by pulling down others, you improve your life .., until you want a Dr anyway. It seems to run through all labours economic policy with quite predictable results,