AIBU to think a foetus is alive before birth?

I know a woman, who thinks foetuses "aren't human"! I think people don't want to face what abortion actually is so they make up this and the "not alive" nonsense.

I once joked I was having guinea pigs when I was pregnant with DS, but that is ridiculous!

I hate the likening of human babies to parasites. That drives me bananas. (Mostly said by men or women who've never been pregnant in my experience.) The comparison to someone on life support is better.

@8TinyToeBeans I didn't see your post untill after I'd made mine!

It's a weird one to define. It's alive from the get go, in the same way as a leaf is alive. It feels more 'alive' when the heart starts beating but really it's still not going to be self sustaining. It's alive right up until the point it becomes self supporting after birth, but equally you wouldn't say a preemie baby on life support wasn't 'alive' just cause it isn't ready to self sustain.
Until birth, they are something of a parasite within the body, but parasites are alive.
Whether they are a 'person' yet is probably easier to define than when they are deemed 'alive'!

I’m not sure why pro-choice advocates want to die on this hill. It’s obviously alive, it’s a baby. Stop with euphemisms that try to gloss over this point.

We can advocate for abortion on the grounds that forcing women to care for children that they are unable or unwilling to support is undesirable on a societal level. You don’t have to lie to people to accomplish this.

She’s phenomenally stupid then.

A while ago on a thread somebody said a fetus wasn't human. What species is it then if it isn't human. Crazy!

Of course it's alive. I don't think anyone can dispute that, and I'm as pro choice as they come.

It's what you do with that knowledge that matters. The question that always needs to be asked is when does it get the same, or more, rights than the person carrying it.

My answer to that last would be 'at birth'.

Is it alive? Yes, because it's part of the mother who is alive.

It’s alive but it’s not independently alive. There are alas foetuses who cannot live once they are born due to disability.

It is alive.

Lots of things in the body are alive and don't take priority, or are even equal to the person who's body they are in though.

I agree with this, to me the concept of whether it is alive or not is irrelevant, that's a debate for scientists. The ethical discussion is separate and about other things.

Before modern scans etc, you'd go by the "quickening", which is when you feel movement.

I'd recommend reading the book Unbearable, Five Women and the Perils of Pregnancy in America by Irin Carmon if you're interested in this area.

I class “alive” as sentient, and I don’t believe foetuses are sentient. They may be “living”, in the same way any of the organs in the body are living.

the growing foetus is alive at time of conception.

Outwith the uterus, currently, the threshold of viability puts it between 22 and 26 weeks of gestation, from a medical viewpoint.

It is probably alive by some scientific measure but the more interesting questions are when is it conscious? When can it survive without the mother's body? When can it survive independently? When does it have rights of its own? Those have 3 different answers I expect and are just as relevant when you're talking about abortion or the rights of unborn children. Some philosophers thought babies were not really people in the way we are. All this to say I don't think there is really a right answer to what you're asking, we just decide the answer based on what we think, know, and believe.

My son was born at 30 weeks. I believe a foetus is alive but not aware.

I agree with you (and agreed with you on the other thread) but I also can see that it’s a grey area for some people. So a 12 week old foetus is also alive in the same way a 30 week one is, the difference is a 30 week one is likely to live outside the womb with some assistance but a 12 week one can’t.
This is why I think abortion past 24 weeks should continue to be limited to very extreme circumstances

It's definitely alive! It has a heartbeat, and there are lots of people walking around who were born at 24+ weeks.

I'm pro-choice, as anything else is depriving women of bodily autonomy, but I do believe abortion is killing a baby and shying away from that isn't helpful. Sometimes it's the least worst option, though.

I have also carried some wriggling kicking foetuses to birth, so I appreciate the point.

I think it's disingenuous to not realise why people have to take such a stand on this though, when women are accused of "murdering" babies

They are alive in the sense of moving, growing, heart beating. They have not attained full legal person good, and do not carry he same rights that I do

Yes, once it's consuming nutrients, excreting waste, growing and moving I would say it is 'alive'.

If it can be said something has died or been killed then it must have been 'alive' so for example when accident or injury to a pregnant woman causes 'death' of an unborn child, logically the foetus was alive prior to that.

Sounds daft to me.
One of my babies was born at 26 weeks and very much alive, he's now a stonking 6'3" 32 year old.

It is alive as opposed to dead (but lots of things are alive, including lichen etc, we eat things that were alive until we harvested them).
It is not capable of independent life, so in that way it is similarly alive to a very badly injured person on life support. (Although both a third trimester baby and a person on life support might have a possibility of self-supporting survival if 'unhooked' at that point).
Key differences include:

• all things being equal, a baby should eventually become self-supporting but many people on life support might not.
• a baby is inside a second person who is definitely fully alive, rather than being supported by a machine.
• a foetus has never been self-supportingly alive but a person on life support almost always has been first (this matters as being born is a legal milestone).

Unfortunately Irish abortion law for many years saw its rights as fully equal to that of the woman carrying it.

Of course it’s alive.

It is viable? - depends on gestation

Does it have rights that supersede its mother? - nope

What a silly question OP.

If it's not alive then it's dead, isn't it?