AIBU to question praying and sleeping in the library kids area?

I used to work as a branch librarian and all kinds of surprising things went on there. As others have pointed out we did get people sleeping and on the whole we tended to turn a blind eye if they were quiet and innoffensive. One evening a man worse the wear from drink would not leave at 9pm when I wanted to close the library. He got very bad tempered when I shook him. I had no choice but to call the police. They arrested him (not very gently) and took him away.

Another time a man peed in a corner behind the shelves. A shocked waman came up and informd me. I simply ordered the janitor to clean it up.

No one ever prayed in my library. However we did have outreach avtivities like lectures and poetry and folk evening. One night we even bad a barber's shop chorus attended by over 100 people. There were noisy children's activities every two weeks. One evening a woman who was studying complained about the noise. I told her that the library is for everyone, not just students. So she might like to avoid that particuar evening when we were entertaining children and use the reference library instead.

Many of the libraries where I used to work in Liverpool are now closed or turned into community hubs staffed by volunteers. One was burned down in the riots last year.

@Blueharmonica So ……. yes we agree his behaviour as described by the op was inappropriate?

I believe I've said multiple times that, if this incident has happened, then yes, the behaviour was inappropriate.

It's the place they were doing it which was inappropriate .

It’s to do with identity politics, some people can’t see people as individuals or past their prejudices. It’s just weird. If it was a white Christian man taking off his shoes, getting out a mat a doing 5 mins of yoga in the kids area of a library then I think it would be unanimous condemnation of the behaviour.

Absolutely not ok. There's a time and place for prayer and it isn't in the bloody kids section of a library

So ……. yes we agree his behaviour as described by the op was inappropriate?

@Blueharmonica Ah so we agree the behaviour was inappropriate as described, but you don’t believe it happened? Could you have not have said that 5 posts ago?

So if you actually read the thread, you will see that you replied to a comment that I made in response to someone who suggested that no one should be allowed to pray in a library.

"Anyone, praying would be asked to leave. A Muslim asked permission once. I refused because a library is an apolitical and non religious space."

This wasn't in relation to a children's mat being moved. I disagree that anyone praying in a library should be asked to leave, so this is what I took issue with.

If you had been more direct in your posts instead of looking for ways to distort everything being said, then sure, I would have said that it's never acceptable to move a children's play mat to pray.

@sunshine240778474 you’re quite right to question praying and sleeping! It’s quite a feat to do both at the same time.

No, you're wrong.

In Saudi Arabia open air prayer is allowed only in designated musallas.

In UAE it is allowed only in approved areas.

In Qatar it is allowed only in designated prayer grounds.

In Egypt unlicensed open air prayer is banned.

In Turkey it is allowed only in approved squares.

In Morocco pre planned events for open air prayer are permitted, but authorities retain the right to cancel the event at any point beforehand.

In Indonesia it is allowed but regulated locally.

In Malaysia it is allowed but regulated.

In Pakistan it is allowed for Sunnis, but Ahmadis are banned.

In Bangladesh it is only allowed in designated Eidgahs.

In Jordan it is only allowed in designated areas.

In Algeria it is regulated.

In Tunisia it is regulated.

And in the central Asian states (some of which I have lived and studied in) such as Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan etc. it is often restricted.

Hence, Muslim-majority states treat large public prayer gatherings as something that must be regulated by the state, rather than something people can freely organize anywhere in public space. So yes the where, the when, and the how it occurs, especially outdoors, is tightly controlled.

Bottom line: it's really not typical for people to perform individual prayers randomly in the middle of public places, especially as nearby mosques and prayer spaces are readily available in Islamic countries. Its generally expected that worshipers use a mosque or a designated prayer area.

Surely nobody could possibly think this man's behaviour was fine! A man shouldn't be in the childrens area unless he was accompanying a child and what horribly entitled behaviour to move the children's mat for his personal use!

Ah so we agree the behaviour was inappropriate as described, but you don’t believe it happened? Could you have not have said that 5 posts ago? It came across that you were arguing that behaviour was fine. A bit confusing, but we got there in the end.

I work in a large city library too, also containing CAB, a homelessness advice centre (for whom we triage), employment support etc. We don't allow unaccompanied adults in the children's area, we don't provide designated prayer places, we don't allow people to sleep in the library and people can be asked to leave if personal hygeine is lacking. They will also be asked to leave if we think they're under the influence of drink and drugs.

We can signpost vulnerable customers to the relevant teams (realistically cuts in funding means directing them to the freephone so they can call the relevant council department - not much face to face these days) whilst having to balance their requirements with ensuring that the library is a pleasant environment for all, especially those coming in with children.

It's very challenging.

Yes, I know what I said.

Praying is acceptable because it doesn't interfere with anyone else.

You mentioned moving a children's play mat. Moving a children's play mat to pray is clearly not acceptable.

But I have already said multiple times that I am questioning whether that actually happened, because it would make absolutely no sense for a Muslim to move a play mat when libraries have lots of empty space.

If he didn’t have a child with him, then no, he shouldn’t be using the children’s section of a library to pray. Just like I’d find any adult man loitering in the childrens section when not accompanying a child, inappropriate. It’s just performative posturing. Pray in the privacy of your own home, or at religious sites such as churches and mosques, which are set up for prayer.

Now this is naughty, you wouldn’t be pretending not to understand and insinuating I’m racist simply because your argument is incoherent would you now? Tut tut, you’re better than that @SpiritAdder

This is what you said ;

Praying is a separate point and it is acceptable solely on the basis that it doesn't interfere with anyone else. Just as it's also acceptable to twirl your hair because you're not interfering with anyone else

Kids areas being used by kids and parents.

No it’s not common. Racist dog whistles are though.

To read, yes. Not to pray publicly or have a nap.

Yes, but what about ‘the rest?’

99% of all argument with people on the left is them pretending not to understand what you are saying.

@Blueharmonica So your point is that because there might be books on religion then it becomes religious space? I’m still not clear.

You're not clear because you keep changing what I said.

I didn't say a space becomes a religious space if there are books on religion. All I stated was that the presence of books on religion does not conflict with a space being a religion-neutral space.

"neutrality on religion does not mean that religion should not have a presence in the library."

Nor am I clear what this has got to do with channel crossings? Or deeply affecting anyone ?

It was you who brought "virtue signalling" into this. If you don't want to have a discussion about "virtue signalling," then don't raise the topic.

The op has described and shown a photo where a man went into the middle of the children’s area and rolled up the children’s play mat and started praying.

As I said previously, I am questioning whether this actually happened.

That is not comparable with twirling your hair is it?

Literally no one said that moving a children's play mat is comparable to twirling your hair.

So ..to recap you’re saying this guy is fine doing this in the kids area of the library as long as he’s a Muslim homeless man. And if he isn’t? Would you consider his behaviour inappropriate?

Is that supposed to be some sort of ‘gotcha’? Because it doesn’t make sense. Everyone in the UK is free to practise any religion or none. There are dozens of ways in which anyone might encounter the expressions of any faith, and it used to be the case (and mainly still is) that we all rub along together just fine.

Do you spend a lot of time focussing specifically on not offending ex-Muslims? I suspect not, if you were honest.

I’m not really sure what you mean by that.

OP is clearly not liberal, so I assume you don’t mean her.

Given that I am black, and politically moderate, I assume you don’t me me either 😅

Or … were you just assuming I was white?