AIBU to question praying and sleeping in the library kids area?

I deal in facts and figures. So many times I’ve tried to engage in debate here by refuting massive assumptions and prejudices by bringing in facts, but they are roundly ignored. It’s made it quite clear that most people don’t actually appreciate being given facts when they contradict a position they have taken based on something other than facts. Usually prejudice. Often stoked by social media, which seems to be where many, many people now get their information about the world. They prefer their prejudiced position. My post reflects the reality of the situation.

Unfortunately I agree with you.

Well you’ve not addressed a single point that I made in opposition to your post. You’ve simply doubled down on what you said and essentially just repeated your previous assumptions with different wording. I’ve already explained why it’s unfair to make those assumptions so I’m not repeating myself.

Perhaps, if your first thought is how social media influences other people’s opinions then I’d invite you to reflect on the possibility that you might’ve also fallen prey to social media driven bias.

(edited for typo)

Some of the rural libraries in my county are so small that there isn't room for a separate area for anything.

And some of the "local" libraries are too small to have a distinctly separate children's area. I can think of at least two where the only clue that you're in the children's area is there are small chairs as well as full size ones. They tend not to have clearly demarked areas for anything, except the desks with PC's on, and they only have their own area is because it saves on cabling.

It's only in the big, central libraries in the largest towns that the buildings are large enough for the sort of setup that some people regard as standard.

I am a historian of society, art, architecture and by extension, some politics and religion. I am not asserting anything about those religions but pointing out arguments I often see from people who have objections to expressions of Islam, Hinduism and Sikhism in particular. If you think there’s no way that there is a race element to the OP and to many, many other disingenuous posts made here in recent years which purport to be about one thing but on examination turn out to be about quite something quite other, then I’d invite you to reflect a bit about the ways in which social media is being manipulated to increase division in society, stoke up racial hatred and achieve particular political ends.

Do you actually believe that Judaism and Christianity are White people’s religions? WTAF.

People in this country have consistently “expressed disquiet” about Christian practices for decades. And the church has adapted in response to public criticism. So your sneaky little accusation about “what might possibly be different about people who follow Islam” is unjustified. Leave people to have discussions. You don’t need to gallop in like a knight in shining armour, here to protect the helpless man from the mean White people. This is a thread about an individual inconveniencing others, not a racist attack.

"It could well create a problem if loads of people did that in a public place or an average work place but they don't."

This is actually a good test of whether something is reasonable or not. What would it be like if lots of people did it?

The thing is, I don’t think there’s any evidence that the staff either didn’t tell him he could use that space as it was empty at the time he asked, or that there were any children in the space until the OP arrived. There are a lot of assumptions being made by other posters and I can’t see that the OP’s posts about the facts of what happened support them.

I would have expected the library staff to find a more appropriate space for both activities if they were preventing children getting to the books.

If you had posted about literally any random lone man on the planet, taking up space designated for children in a library (or anywhere), moving furniture and preventing people from using it for it’s intended purpose you would have received universal agreement. This thread would have been filled with “male entitlement” type posts. But as soon as you mentioned that one little detail indicating his religion, many people on here will seek to excuse it. I’ve no idea why these people seem to think that we should expect less from minority groups. It’s patronising towards those groups.. and to be frank, it’s unfair to non-minority groups to tell us we need to put up with poor behaviour. We deserve to be respected as much as anyone else.

The fact is, you encountered an ignorant man who felt entitled to take up space that wasn't intended for him. It was clearly unnecessary and deliberately designed to prevent others from using it. His excuse for doing it is irrelevant.

He doesn’t actually have to pray there, he can make up the prayer later, he’s just being a selfish git stopping children from using their own area. He should have been told to move.

I am a Londoner, know and have known many Muslims as colleagues, fellow parents when my offspring was at school and neighbours. I have never in my life known one who would pray like that in a public library. They pray (those who adhere to the religion), at home or in the mosque.

All I can say is this man is a very eccentric Muslim. Britain is known for its tolerance of eccentricities; the only thing to say to children who may witness this is that it takes all sorts, he is doing no harm.

It could well create a problem if loads of people did that in a public place or an average work place but they don't.

There are eccentrics and fanatics in every religion, some of whom go public and even publicly proselytise. I doubt this man was praying for very long, the ritual prayers are generally 5-10 minutes.

Resentment from whom? Atheists who think religious people should have to pay to pray?
I wouldn't have thought so, or there would be a big hue and cry about the government grants for the maintenance of churches from atheists, which is obviously far more costly than making a small room in a library available for the religious.

This..the children's section is for children in our library.

Yes, asking a Muslim to stop praying on the floor of a library is just the sort of thing that might fall foul of this legislation. That would be enough to deter the librarians from doing anything. It will just increase resentment.

The Free Speech Union are currently fighting against it and they have some very clever lawyers.

Christianity (Catholicism in particular) and Judaism also have strict rules governing women’s behaviour and bodies, despite existing in Western, predominantly secular societies. Are they okay with you because they are white people’s religions?

Edited: for clarity, I am an atheist who has no truck with any organised religion myself, but I believe we are right to have religious tolerance in this country where we allow freedom of religion and religious expression to everyone, within the law. I am interested to know how far people making statements like yours have previously expressed disquiet about any other religion in the same way, and what might be different about people who follow the Islamic faith.

We cannot possibly think it’s reasonable to decide what other people’s religion does and doesn’t require.

I agree that a library isn’t a suitable place for prayer, unless a member of staff in the library directed him to that space rather than somewhere private, in which case it’s obviously their fault too.

But stating what people can and can’t believe isn’t acceptable, even if you personally don’t have a religious belief (which I don’t).

"if they serve an area with a high proportion of people who wish to pray, an allocated room is often provided"

I hope this is not provided for free. All communities should be treated the same. Anything else breeds resentment which doesn't benefit anyone in the long run.

Well exactly- religions should adapt so men and women are equal. If not, I don’t think they have a place in society. Up to people what they do privately but out and about, in society these archaic misogynistic rules have no place.

This is what happens, public toilets are closed, people stop using libraries, public transport becomes undesirable and dangerous. Who will stop this decline?

I think if we’re questioning people’s mental health, then the random guy talking to an invisible supernatural being in the children’s area of the library might be a higher priority than me.

I don’t think it’s weird at all. The choice of location is inflammatory and meant to mark territory. It’s beyond entitled

Maybe their religions should evolve so that the requirements for men were the same as for women. That would be more compatible with living in a western secular or traditionally Christian society.

Libraries shouldn't be there to soak up the results of a fraying society: homelessness, people using it for their own religious purposes (unless they've booked a room for it), drug addicts etc. Libraries should be a little oasis of calm and good manners in a chaotic world. We don't want another safe space being surrendered to the mob.

Eh? What a weird interpretation. You sound paranoid