To think not enough value is put on friendships that aren’t particularly deep?

I don’t have, and never have had, any friendships that didn’t fit the “shallow” definition here. (Although I probably could rely on most of them
in a crisis as they’re all good people.) They are essential to my wellbeing and happiness and I do wish there were more of them.

Different friends for different things! And a friend doesn’t have to be perfect to be a friend. I have very old friends who will always be friends despite us not having loads in common anymore because we have become adults together and they are like family. We don’t see each other more than twice a year due to distance and text occasionally. I love them dearly.

I think then I have collected friends over time- we moved a distance away four years ago and I know of all the friends I had in the village probably two or three will stick and I will see occasionally. We had our kids together.

Then current people - new friends and neighbours. And casual work friendships which might become more over time.

I’d also have a coffee with a mere acquaintance!

I think the key is though that although I like having friends I don’t NEED them, and I don’t expect the world from them. I am lucky to have them and my life is the better for having them in it, and I really love some of them, but I need to resource my happiness from within I think.

It's kind of a long-running joke but it is frequently accurate - MN is characterised by posters who hate both their husbands and their friends.

So many of them involve taking offence when someone fails to treat you, at all times, like a member of their closest inner circle.

You're going for coffee, but oh no! She invited another of her friends! The Dynamic Is Changed!

She invited you to her wedding, but only the evening do!

She made plans with another mutual friend based on something they're both into and you're not - what a snub!

You often just have to accept that you're not actually best friends with someone. It may come in time or it may not. What takes a friendship to the next level is often circumstance, not effort.

(Some more of my longest friendships: she was a friend of a friend who was often at the same parties but we took months to have a proper conversation and then when we did we realised we had fucked-up families in exactly the same way. Another was someone who happened to attend the same annual work event that I did, for a completely different reason, and so we ended up treasuring a bit of socialising time that didn't have to double up as awful networking for either of us.)

Whereas I choose my friends because I enjoy their company. I don't see an exchange of services as intrinsic to friendship. Obviously it happens, if you get dug into one another's lives, but the key thing for me remains 'Do I like this person's company?' One of the problems with a lot of friendships that come up as problematic on Mn is that they seem to almost invariably involve the OP complaining about how many favours she did for a 'friend' who then didn't invite her child to the other child's party or something. No reference to liking.

Agree. I'm always surprised on here when people talk about having one or two friends, tops, and basically seem to see people outside their immediate family as not to be trusted. I expect it's the same people who never answer their doors or phones without an appointment.

@FacingtheSun

I do think far more posters on Mn experience significant difficulties with friendships than in the general population. I assume it’s a self-selecting group on here — people who find it easier to be online than with other people in RL. Where it strikes me as unhealthy is when they push their own deeply unhealthy version of friendship dynamics on here, potentially to people who accept it as true because someone on the internet said it.

Completely. All the “block and delete” and unnecessary flouncing for one thing.

And the bizarre view that I see again and again that “friends = drama”.

This makes no sense whatsoever. Why should a friend (or even a casual acquaintance) create more “drama” than a spouse or a sibling? If anything I would say a friend is far less stress most of the time than a family member.

You can value someone in your life no matter the closeness.

Absolutely agree @FeastisReady , I live a very quiet life due to long term illness, can’t socialise much, and I really, really miss casual friendships. They can give fresh perspectives, interest, and occasionally, intimacy - without the demands of a closer relationship.

Maybe it’s partly an introvert/ extrovert thing - my extremely introvert partner makes lifelong friends when he makes them, but doesn’t ever look for more. I make friends whenever I get the chance and even enjoy chatting to neighbours ( shock!)

Yes I love those little pockets of friends where the conversation isn’t as heavy. I’ve got 2 super close friends and when we meet up it’s catching up about kids, houses, ageing parents, holiday plans etc. But then I have a group of friends from work who are late 20’s/early 30’s and we sometimes have drinks after work and I love being able to talk about “none grown up” things, it’s lovely!

I agree with the posters calling it an acquaintance

Acquaintances have value but I've been told off on here for saying that they're not the same as friends. But IMHO they really aren't.

@Thepeopleversuswork things are definitely different now compared to say 30 years ago. Also, I've said on here before, my parents were big believers in friendship - the kind you help each other out. I was raised to be part of the village and always help out. People don't want help anymore.

Oh, I should get outside on my tea break because otherwise I will be waffling on for hours 😂 there is actual sun here!

For me it really was a case of don't know what you've got till it's gone. I didn't used to value acquaintances at all before that.

All my friendships are light touch friendships, meet up for a cuppa or a theatre/cinema trip type of relationship and that’s just the way I like it, I couldn’t cope with the intense drama filled friendships you read about on here.

@latetothefisting another one for the list - neighbours. It's likely to end up in conflict and best in the long run to just stay out of each other's way.

I agree, but I do think far more posters on Mn experience significant difficulties with friendships than in the general population. I assume it’s a self-selecting group on here — people who find it easier to be online than with other people in RL. Where it strikes me as unhealthy is when they push their own deeply unhealthy version of friendship dynamics on here, potentially to people who accept it as true because someone on the internet said it.

I quite like the casual acquaintance type friendship. Nice enough to have a coffee and share an activity with but no drama!! I can forget them at the doorstep and never feel guilty about saying no to anything else or missing a class.

I agree and I think the all or nothing approach some people take to friendship is incredibly toxic.

It strikes me again and again reading Mumsnet that so many people struggle with the basics of friendship: so many people who seem to fail to understand the rules and how to build relationships.

You read post after post from people who want to impose terrifyingly controlling behaviour on people they have met in the name of “friendship”. Throwing their toys out of the pram because someone blows them out once, tolerating stifling behaviour etc. You only have to look at the “bitchy school mums” threads to see this paranoia in action.

I don’t know why grown women find friendship so difficult, to be honest. It’s like anything else: there’s give and take, compromise and disappointment. I wonder whether this is a new thing: I can’t help thinking it wasn’t this bad when I was young.

I heard something interesting about how, during Covid, everyone was deprived of those casual friendships because we couldn't go to work/exercise classes/book clubs, whatever, and it had a marked effect on many people's happiness. Those casual chats mattered a lot.

I know I felt happier when I got a volunteer job helping out at a covid vaccination centre.

I don’t think it’s just on mumsnet people are “weird” with friendships. I definitely experience people segregating friends and actively disappearing if you no longer “fit” exactly with their life.

I used to have a nice group of friends. We were a mix of school/teen friendships. I lost pretty much all of them once they had kids. They renamed our WhatsApp group a mum related name and even though I (I think) was invited to nights out (even when it was worded like who’s coming to the next mums out on the town) I obviously wasn’t invited to things they were doing things with the kids. So eventually I just stopped responding to the nights out messages and no one really noticed. I would message a couple that I was always closer to in the past and ask if they fancied dinner and a catch up and it was always met with a “too tired really just want to curl up and watch a movie with the family sorry”. So I stopped asking that as well. Haven’t seen any of them for a few years now. I’m quite happy these days though without proper friends. I have people at work I chat to and message occasionally but don’t see them out of work. I have my husband I can talk to as well obviously.

I feel this. The friendships that were close and deep at the time of lockdown have survived but a lot of acquaintanceships were nipped in the bud. It would have felt odd to reach out to people I'd only met at a few parties but I would've liked the chance to see if some of those could've become real friendships organically.

Completely agree. I wouldn't even necessarily call them "shallow" or "not that deep" friendships because in my experience they can transform quite unexpectedly. Sometimes you just need a life event to pull an acquaintance into your orbit more frequently to find they've suddenly become a lifelong friend. When I think of two of my best friends now, I remember I was on distantly friendly terms with both for years after I first actually met them. One of them then moved to my area of London and we became each other's default person to call when we just wanted to go for a drink or hang out casually. Another of them started going out with my housemate and so I ended up seeing much more of him than I had before.

It's probably what I'd call an acquaintance rather than a friend but I actually agree. It wasn't until lockdown that I appreciated how much richer life is with these weaker but still valuable ties. I think for most people their close ties can be quite samey but these ones can be very varied.

I really agree, I see friendship described on here in ways more intense than I'd describe a romantic partner.

I think friends ARE weak ties, inherently!

You can celebrate and feel glad for the richness and intimacy if you have one or two real besties in the course of your life, but I wouldn't even with them think it requires commitment to calling 5 times per week or assuming you are there for them 24/7, helping them move house etc. That's behaviour for partners.

I like friends for a reason, friends for a season, friends for life. The reason friends you probably see more often but less deeply; the season friends you might see quite intensely but then move on. The life friends can include a commitment to caring but practical meet ups can wax and wane.

Even family have times when you are closer and times when you drift. Sibling moves to Germany, have a few years where you're not in touch much, then when grandma dies and you have to do care and clearing her house the sibling ties refresh and strengthen again.

Agreed. That’s Mn, though. Where both OPs and responders struggle with friendships.

Yes, I think a disproportionate number of Mners struggle with friendship, and that an alien reading from Planet Whatsit for insight into earthlings would get a very odd idea of human relationships, and be given the idea that friendships in particular involve ‘drama’, misunderstandings, ‘ghosting’, ‘exclusions’, ‘cliques’, and, perhaps most weirdly of all, that ‘friend’ means someone you don’t much like but mysteriously feel compelled to spend time with.