To think not enough value is put on friendships that aren’t particularly deep?

@gannett

I wonder if the "drama" stems from the sort of person who prioritises finding a partner naturally also being the sort of person who views other women as competition.

Quite likely. I think it's also upbringing. If you're taught from a young age that its about finding a "handsome prince" or that finding a husband is incredibly important you're going to prioritise attracting and keeping a mate over everything else.

If your one job is to look attractive, smile a lot and not say too much, allow yourself to be chatted up and then play the rules long enough to be proposed to then of course you're going to find the "rules of the game" easier, as @FacingtheSun referenced several people saying.

Whereas the whole ambivalent, messy business of making friends (of both sexes) is going to seem harder to navigate, particularly when it comes into conflict with keeping the man happy. Hence the "drama", I guess. A lot of people like to keep relationships very predictable and black and white.

And then of course these people who have sidelined their friends in youth because they've found a man invariably wake up in late middle age bored, friendless and stifled (or worse, isolated and ostracised) and come onto Mumsnet complaining they don't know how to make friends.

I find it incredibly depressing how ingrained these attitudes are and how willingly women walk into this.

Most people have a middle ground. My friends from high school (left in 2000), I haven't had a proper falling out with anyone since we were 16. There's odd spots of tension but we're mature, intelligent women. It doesn't need to be dramatic! My best friend from work, I had one proper falling out with but it was at a point when we were both single, and the friendship was intense. Actually all resolved by talking. I think some people enjoy the drama. Like couples who scream and shout and throw things then fall into bed together, they need high drama for the adrenaline to make the relationship feel BIG.

I do agree op. I do a voluntary role where I see people a few times a year. You'd never guess from watching us drink, play, talk, laugh that our friendships are so shakkoely rooted. But it doesn't matter. There's depth where it matters

completely agree. On any MN friendship related threads there's always one or two posters who pop up to say that they don't have friends because all groups of women are bitchy/too complicated/they just don't have anything in common with other women, etc.

Often this friendlessness isn't actually a choice on their part - or if it is it's been made after bad experiences in childhood and early adulthood with other women. It then becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy whereby whenever they then enter a new situation with a group of women they are pre-disposed to assume said 'group' won't like them, so they distance themselves before the 'group' can exclude them to avoid getting hurt again. Then of course the 'group' react to someone whom they see as acting superior/doing the 'not like other girls' spiel or just generally being stand-offish, and do start excluding the poster or even talking about them, and the poster's biases about 'all women' are proven again.

Then reading MN they then get their biases confirmed even more whenever somebody posts about an issue with a friendship group - "see, I'm right! Big groups of women are always bitchy, it's not a problem with me" and don't get that that's because people with normal healthy friendships aren't starting threads on social media about them!

I have a friendship with a colleague whereby 99% of our out-of-work interactions are leaving each other voice notes laughing at what an idiot Zak Polanski is and sending each other funny Instagram reels.

Its currently my favourite friendship and just what I need

I stayed in it for about a year after I last spoke to anyone in it. Then left it. No one contacted me since.

Yep same! I found FWBs much easier to deal with than the idea of an actual relationship with actual emotional intimacy in my 20s (and frankly one night stands who I didn't even have to be friends with were even more preferable).

I wonder if the "drama" stems from the sort of person who prioritises finding a partner naturally also being the sort of person who views other women as competition. That's a view that crops up a lot on MN, the idea that we all "naturally" compete with each other. I am so, so glad that I found a social circle of women (and men) who just don't see each other in this way.

Oh, I had a miserable time at school. One of the enormous pleasures of university and post-university adult life has been making a wide variety of friends, and discovering how enriching friendships are.

Yes the amount of threads where normal human behaviour is deemed to make a friend a "cheeky fucker" is astonishing. How very dare she ask you to take a parcel in. As for the ones who have the temerity to invite you to a party that isn't ultra-convenient for you...

As a bit of an introverted teenage loner who still gets hives at the thought of networking, one of the nicest surprises of my adult life is that friends (and, yes, good acquaintances) have been so easy to find. I think it's because I've gravitated towards "my tribe", I actively sought out people who were on some level like-minded.

I think this describes all my friendships. I've never got the idea of phoning someone late at night talking about my problems. That's just not what friendship is to me. No judgement either way, I just like friends for fun.

100% agree! I find many of threads on here absolutely baffling. Posters devastated that they are not invited to things being advised to “cut off” the non inviter - even family!

Agree some posters are stuck in the primary school / young person model of intense friendships. I don’t think that’s realistic for a normal adult with other responsibilities. I think friends are to have fun with!

Also local friends are so precious. All very well having a “ride or die” (hate that phase) “best friend” who lives 4 hours drive away but she’s not going for a dance on Saturday night or a casual last minute coffee on a Friday is she?

Yes, exactly! I’ve asked on more than one such thread how it is that someone can claim to find making friends so utterly impossible and so reliant on arcane rules they don’t understand, but to have successfully navigated the more fraught business of finding someone to marry. I remember at least one person saying that dating was much easier, the rules were more obvious, and the goal clearer.

But, like you, I’ve generally concluded that it’s down to an unthinking (and depressing) assumption that finding a husband is compulsory whereas friends are an optional frippery.

Are you still on that group?

Are you me? Absolutely this. I’ve always marvelled over how people can find making a friend an impossible, unattainable goal but have been able to navigate the much more emotionally fraught business of finding a mate. I am genuinely baffled by this as I found dating, never mind building actual intimacy, much more daunting than going to the pub or to a cafe and chatting to people.

Like you I have concluded that a lot of this boils down to internalised misogyny, or just narrow expectations of life. Finding a mate takes priority over building solidarity with other women so if there is friction (or “drama” in the jargon), the relationship with the man always takes priority. Hence all the comments about “only need my husband” or “only need my little family”.

I have friends I would ring at 3am in a crisis and actually have done and I have others who I really like but it’s just not like that.

I don’t think romantic relationships can be compare to friendships completely, men have other reasons to bother with women don’t they, basically sex and other services.

And what has struck me over and over again during all the time I’ve been on Mn is that posters who claim not to have a single friend in the world and to be unable to make any, nonetheless frequently have the social skills and persistence to have navigated dating and relationships well enough to have found someone to marry. One obvious conclusion to draw is that these people prize marriage far above friendships that they’re prepared to put themselves put for it, and then close down socially once they’ve bagged their chap.

Yes, but for some reason which I can’t fathom poor behaviour, or any pushback or criticism from husbands is tolerated but when it involves adult women it’s “drama”.

Thanks for this Op - I agree. I have lots of friends but very few close friends and always wonder if I’ve missed out not having a “group” of close friends, like mean girls or something. I have a few groups where we all meet for birthdays or events some mum friends, some hobby friends, some school friends. Only one bestie.

I've said it before but when you forget that MN has a particularly high proportion of misanthropes you get some odd ideas about what's normal.

Yes, that’s true! That’s what Mn has taught me — that’s it’s possible to think both positions are normal!

I 100% agree. I have loads of friends acquired mostly through various different jobs and then some where we’ve met, thought the other was fun and caught up irregularly but for decades. One of them came for dinner at the drop of a hat 2 days after her dad had died extremely unexpectedly. We did talk about it but she said at the time felt able to offload about finding his body and the awfulness of it all because I didn’t know him, or her mother or the area or anything. I didn’t have a preconceived anything or any interruptions. I just refilled her glass with red wine as required and gave her a hug when she left and we resumed contact as normal after. A distant friend is often a good thing.

@gannett

So many of them involve taking offence when someone fails to treat you, at all times, like a member of their closest inner circle. You're going for coffee, but oh no! She invited another of her friends! The Dynamic Is Changed!
She invited you to her wedding, but only the evening do! She made plans with another mutual friend based on something they're both into and you're not - what a snub! You often just have to accept that you're not actually best friends with someone. It may come in time or it may not. What takes a friendship to the next level is often circumstance, not effort.

All of this. The “changing the dynamic” thing is particularly stifling and weird. I have never been able to understand why people have a problem with this.

I think a lot of people think friend has to mean “best friend” in a cloying, primary school sense. It’s expected that friendship has to be exclusive, like a romantic relationship, or void.

If you behave like this, as an adult woman, you are more or less guaranteed never to make any friends at all. Why have people become so controlling?

Agree that all relationships are important. I love the incidental chats I have with the office manager or guy down the running club I fall into step with. Sometimes these sorts of relationships can be light and regular and connecting without any of the heavy

@FacingtheSun I didn't mention "enjoying their company" because it just seems as automatic as the sun rising in the morning. But I forget some people have friends they don't like, like the Dowager Countess 😂

However, I think the fact there has been an increase in people who just don't enjoy company ever, is a big deal. It impacts on everything whether it's friendship or just being casual acquaintances.

Yes I think especially as you get older (retired from work) the more casual friendships become very important.