Enjoying quiet drink & elder man approaches

Yes, and unfortunately, that poster has completely misunderstood the halo effect and its various nuances which is not surprising so it might also just be ignorance on their part.

The halo effect is real, but research on harassment and creepiness shows behaviour matters much more than looks. Studies by psychologists like Peter Glick and Susan Fiske found that persistence after rejection was still judged negatively even when the man was attractive.

Research on “creepiness” by Frank McAndrew also shows people label behaviour creepy when it violates social norms or creates uncertainty so things like hovering, staring, or ignoring cues to leave. So, attractiveness might influence first impressions, but it doesn’t override behaviour.

(My first degree was in social psychology)

'Women don't judge men on what they do but how they look'

Anyone else think this view sounds a bit incel adjacent?

WTF are you going on about - why would men need to be worried about "trusting" women? trusting women to do what? Men arent the ones getting battered and killed on the regular by the opposite sex are they? women are.

Also, are you suggesting that if a woman is sexually assaulted or raped by a conventionally attractive man that it wont bother her, it wont traumatise her or she wont go to the police about it because thats horribly offensive.

No but you'd realise that you couldn't trust women because they don't judge men on what they do but on how they look and that would affect your interactions with them.
Disclaimer: That is if the halo effect is true of course.

I think you're being disingenuous. I really do.
Because of the (well researched, well documented) halo effect good-looking people get given the benefit of the doubt more than unattractive people.

Oh you'd be scared of not being given the benefit of the doubt (and maybe a bit envious of the better looking man who would be treated a little bit more politely) Got it. Not sure I'd waste much of my headspace on that if I were a man but you obviously have other priorities.

I know right? this conversation has become so silly.

What does this have to do with OP’s situation?

Eh? I'm not a bloke.

I think you're being disingenuous. I really do.
Because of the (well researched, well documented) halo effect good-looking people get given the benefit of the doubt more than unattractive people.

Of course good-looking men get rejected by women (for various reasons) when they try to chat them up but because of the halo effect their behaviour is far less likely to be labelled as creepy than an ugly guy who does even if everything else about talking to the woman is the same as the attractive guy.

This applies to women, too, of course. Attractive woman commits a terrible crime, unattractive woman commits same crime.
Guess which one gets more understanding and excuses made for her?

So it's not about being scared, it's about not wanting to be labelled a creep while the good-looking guy gets the 'well can' t blame him for trying' line.

No disrespect meant here but the halo effect is a well-documented phenomenon and I'm not going to listen to a random person on the Internet telling me it's not true.

It's not fair, it's not right but it is what it is.

GOOD. Hopefully this will turn into fear and consternation and then finally we can have gender equality 🤘

Maybe when men can finally empathise with what women go through they'd be actually prompted to change their sleazy behaviour

Poor ugly men, can’t even be creepy fuckers anymore.

What would you be concerned about? Rejection? Surely you understand that any social overture might not be accepted o matter what way you look. Are you afraid you'd be arrested for talking to a woman while ugly? Or smacked by a woman for talking to her while ugly? I'm here to reassure you that this would not happen.

Scared? No. Concerned? Yes.

I'd certainly be concerned if I were an unattractive man.

You'd be scared would you? What utter crap.

I'd certainly be concerned if I were an unattractive man.
There's such a thing as the halo effect where good-looking people (not just men, women too) get given the benefit of the doubt over things uglier people get grief over.

So in the case of an ugly, too old guy politely asking a woman for a drink he may get grief for it, but if a younger, hot guy were to ask with the same level of politeness and respect he'd either be told yes or turned down in a more considerate manner as in "thanks for asking but (insert reason)".
Yet they've asked the same thing in the same way.

Probably going to be told I'm wrong. Well argue with the psychologists who've observed and well documented this phenomenon not me.

For balance, good looking women get given the benefit of the doubt, too.

Don't shoot the messenger. I didn't invent human nature.

Maybe ask yourself why that is.

women are raised, socially expected to be ‘ladylike’ - polite, compliant, friendly, to except the advances of men politely.
We also learn through experiences that when we aren’t those things men will call us stuck up bitches or say ‘Christ I was ONLY being friendly!’ Followed by some degrading or belittling comment. And everyone else agrees that she should have just been polite.
if it was the other way round though the woman be be labelled mental or needy or again some other insult.
Women no longer need to put up with this behaviour from men,
The standing over, putting his coat over the back of her chair… all meant to be intimidating!

Yes, it's such a revealing set of posts. Internalised misogyny, right there on the page. It seems to stem from loneliness, and anger that women have let her down or hurt her in the past. It's easier to blame women as a sex class - because everyone is societally trained to blame women, including women - rather than see how you might have contributed to your female friendships going wrong.

Similar to men really: when they can't get dates/romantic relationships with women, rather than read the ample and very informative literature written by women on dating, these guys charge to the manosphere, which is filled with other men who can't get dates. So they learn about utter silliness such as 6666 and Chads and Alphas and PUA, and they get all hyped up about how shit women are and how you have to trick them to grab what you want from them. And women can smell these predatory arses a mile off, so these guys get nowhere in terms of finding a partner who loves them and wants to share her life with them.

It all stems from patriarchy, misogyny, and reflexive scapegoating of women for everything that goes wrong.

Exactly - women cant win here at all because however they react to it, someone will criticise and pick them apart for it.

I've made friendly conversation with men before and they've taken it to mean I want to shag them (I didnt). So, thats wrong. But when you tell them you dont want to talk at all you then get accused of being rude or being cruel to someone who might be lonely and "just wants to chat".

I mean, FFS, women cant do anything right in this scenario can they?!

How about for a change the men consider their actions and why they might be making so many women feel uncomfortable? I have managed to live my entire life so far without trying to force a random stranger to talk to me who clearly didnt want to - its really not very difficult at all, I do it every damn day so why cant men? 😡

He put his jacket on your chair? That seems like very domineering behaviour… Like he was laying claim to you!
I find it so strange that women can’t go out alone and be left alone, it’s always assumed you’d want company or that you’re waiting for someone to join you.
I always get approached by people.. my DD says I attract weirdos… I do chat awkwardly to them though because I worry about being rude. But if they ask personal questions I’m vague or lie, then awkwardly make my excuses and leave … which is wrong and I shouldn’t have to!!
The fact everyone else was watching suggests to me that he’s known locally for being a bit ‘off’.
i can’t get ost the coat on your chair… that’s such strange behaviour and u did good setting boundaries.

Are all of them though trained?

Plus, why should OP have to?

The man should have simply buggered off.

No one should have to escalate into getting bar staff when people could just leave others alone especially when they have shown and said they do not want to be bothered.

Heck, men don’t typically sit next to other men and expect a chat, they somehow are capable of leaving them alone, but many men seem to think women are entitled to give them attention when the woman obviously isn’t interested.

Women seem to not be able to win when it comes to such things:

Be polite - Should have been more rude/assertive

Be rude - Didn’t have to be so mean about it (insert excuses)

Ignore - Should have told him you didn’t want to be bothered or it’s just a bit of chat, why go to a pub/public place then..

This is rarely expected of men. While women have to worry if a man will come after them later or try to follow them if the man doesn’t like it and women have been assaulted or even killed because a man couldn’t accept a simple no. Few men have had to worry about this from turning down a woman, yet men are way more likely to be assaulted by another man.

I have been approached by men and thankfully many have been lovely, accepted my answer, wished me a nice day, and walked away but some.. ugh.. want to turn it into a debate/interrogation as if I owe them conversation when I just want to sit peacefully in a garden, park, and enjoy nature and/or read a book.

I would be scared to be a man nowadays, rather than a woman.
I would keep my head down, not make eye contact and not utter a word to anyone.

If you didn't get angry** and persistent when you opened the gambit, then someone said they weren't up for engaging, and instead you thought about what was a respectful reaction and went with 'Ok, no worries, enjoy your drink', then I don't think you would have too much to fear.

If only more men really did take this approach then perhaps we wouldn't be in the pickle we're in. And we're in one, make no mistake. Few women can't tell a story of unwanted male behaviour when we're simply exercising our right - surely one of the most basic rights there is - of going about our business in peace.

But the female social conditioning seeps through the above post in so many ways that it's very obvious its author is a woman.

Women know the difference between friendly and lecherous.

Eye contact and a nod or greeting (all right me duck in my area) or "the bitter is rank today" while standing at the bar is very different to the unwanted attention. OP and others (including myself) have received.

As a PP stated many women do not go to pubs purely because they don't want to run the risk of being hassled. I also agree that Wetherspoons seem to be more appealing to a lone woman.