Enjoying quiet drink & elder man approaches

Were you sat in his usual seat?

@QuintadosMalvados

The difficulty with your argument is that it changes the situation being discussed. You are describing a different hypothetical argument that hasn't even happened.

You’re describing two men who politely approach, are told no, and immediately leave. In that case neither man would be "creepy", (unless they are displaying odd behaviours whilst approaching of course- such as touching or other odd behaviours) they’d simply have been rejected.

But that isn’t what the OP described. She was clearly watching the final minutes of a match, wasn’t engaging with his questions, and he put his coat on her chair and stood beside her table smiling while she ignored him. At that point it stops being a brief approach and becomes inserting himself into her space and expecting interaction.

I don’t think anyone would deny that some people can be unkind when rejecting someone and that can happen to both men and women. But that still isn’t what the OP described. She didn’t insult him, mock his looks, or tell him he was “beneath her.” She ignored the conversation while watching the end of a match and eventually said she just wanted to watch it. That’s a VERY mild way of setting a boundary.

None of that means he’s “beneath” her or that unattractive men deserve ridicule; it just means she didn’t want to chat and signalled that. Not wanting to engage with a stranger isn’t cruelty.

Most people would find that uncomfortable regardless of what he looked like, so the issue here is behaviour and context, not attractiveness. The fact he was 40 years older than her would have also made me very uncomfortable because that would be the same age gap as between me and my grandfather when he was alive.

What I find curious is that you seem very fixated on the feelings of men in this discussion but you dont seem remotely bothered that many of us have been sworn at and cursed at and felt concerned for our own safety when politely declining to talk to strange men.

Yes, let’s stop talking about being harassed by men and the unwanted attention when trying to get on with lives, because some women can be cruel at times.

It's not about him being upset it's just that the way of rejection may be harsher.

There seems to be a lot of pointing out the negative side of men here but women can be quite cruel if a man they deem to be beneath them in terms of looks asks them out.
People have egos-men and women- and it can be insulting if someone approaches us who we think is way below our league.

(Even if he is perfectly respectful about it.
That's a key point here. I'm not talking about disrespectful pricks.)

The good-looking guy is given more respect.
I'm sorry but you only have to look at the thread title - what's his age mentioned for? Is it just to be factual or to indicate he's past it?

Now I know not all people are nasty to those they deem beneath them but some are.

I'd at least just half smile and give a one word answer

If this man in the OP didnt recognise that ignoring him was a sign she didnt want to talk, why on earth would you think that smiling at him and answering him would work?- he would far more likely take that as encouragement from you that you wanted to talk more, not less!

I also think telling someone to fuck off because someone is being a bit annoying trying to chat to me for 5 mins (but I haven't told them to leave) is a bit extreme but that's just me.

I have politely told men (strangers to me) on multiple occasions that I didnt want to talk to them only for them to tell me I was "a stuck up bitch", a "stupid old cow who thought too much of herself", "must be a lesbian" . Do you also find that a "a bit extreme"?

Totally agree with you.
Of course OP has an absolute right not to enter into any conversations she doesn't want to but I personally couldn't bring myself to outright ignore someone if they were just striking up a conversation....I'd at least just half smile and give a one word answer so that my body language would give a clear indication that I wasn't interested in pursuing a conversation.....and telling someone to fuck off is completely over the top aggressive unless of course they were harassing me or making a lewd comment....

No.

Ignoring someone isn’t automatically rude. It’s often a common way people signal they don’t want to engage, especially when they’re clearly occupied in doing something. In the OP she was watching the final minutes of a match and giving minimal or no response, which most people would read as a cue to move on.

The awkwardness arose because he didn’t take those cues and instead put his coat on her chair and stood beside her table smiling creepily at her waiting for interaction. At that point the burden shifts to her to explicitly tell him to leave, which is exactly what she eventually did.

Also, it’s also worth remembering that many women have had the experience of politely telling a man they don’t want to talk and being sworn at or insulted for it, so sometimes ignoring or giving minimal responses is simply the safest way to signal disinterest. Many of have given examples of this in this thread.

People aren’t obliged to entertain conversation from strangers. Especially strangers that are making them feel uncomfortable.

I have said this previously but I have managed to spend my entire life so far having never forced a stranger into an uncomfortable conversation because I realise the world doesnt revolve around me and my wants. It's really not difficult at all and men could easily do it too. The issue is- they dont want to stop doing it and they feel entitled to women's time and attention.

I suspect not mum's so much, though it's hard to grow up in a culture not have it affect you unconsciously. Dad's certainly, though. Even when respectful of women in the home, they will frequently avoid giving women in other situations the same attention and status they give other men. Some are fairly explicit about it. But it's not just parents. Social pressure like that couldn't be sustained if it just came from parents. Mainly it's other men that are raising men this way. Dad's, brothers, uncles, coaches. But our schools do quite a bit - both through the way they give more attention to boys in the classroom and through the curriculum, which is dominated by male voices and perspectives. Media (again, male dominated) is also a significant purveyor of the idea women don't count as much as men. The BBC has always had boys dominating children's programming and while TV is waning in influence, the rising online content is even worse.

When the diminution of women is so pervasive the question isn't really "Who" is doing this.

Spot on.

Fair enough. He shouldn't have tried to talk to her in the first place but ignoring him is also quite rude. He's then put in a tricky situation where he has to just not say anything and leave (which he did but is then accused of taking off in a huff(!) which is rude apparently) he'd probably be accused of still trying to harass her if he started to say "ok well enjoy your evening then" to someone ignoring him.

I also think telling someone to fuck off because someone is being a bit annoying trying to chat to me for 5 mins (but I haven't told them to leave) is a bit extreme but that's just me.

@RawBloomers but who is raising men and women this way? Parents? Teachers? It's just not something I recognise.

It's not just that women are raised to be polite, men are raised to see other men as autonomous and women as less so.

If a man in a bar wants company and looks around for someone to talk to he will see men and women engrossed in what they are doing giving off "don't approach me" vibes. He is far more likely to respect the men's vibes and ignore the women's.

Men approach women rather than other men because they are brought up to feel entitled to female attention, whereas other men's attention is considered to require an equal exchange.

I would have thought that the immediate red flag is his putting his jacket on the back of YOUR chair! How fucking dare he? I am quite serious, taking figurative possession of both you and your chair…. You absolutely did the right thing. If you were as brave as my dd(and I certainly am not, so this is not a criticism at all) you would have told him to remove it, I know dd would have had no compunction about saying that at all and that would have let him know straight away to not even try.

I mean he's a person he's not just a bit of dirt on your shoe. If women did the approaching would you be fine with a bloke telling you to "sling your hook" or whatever?

Actually yes, I would. If I approached someone in a bar who was clearly watching tv or reading a book and I tried to start a conversation with them and everything about their body language screamed they didn't want to talk to me and this was an absolute stranger about whom I knew nothing whatsoever (they could even be married as far as I know) and they ignored me and THEN I persisted by carrying on firing questions at them and putting my coat on THEIR chair then yes, I would expect to be told to fuck off and I would bloody deserve it too. Thats why, in my entire life I have never tried to force a conversation with someone I dont know! If a conversation happens naturally then great, but if I am ignored or someone clearly doesnt want to converse with me then I respect that as any decent person should. Anything else is just harassment.

Most reasonable people would expect to be told to sling their hook in this scenario, absolutely.

Have you considered the Bobby Hill ‘I don’t know you’ approach?

I know! I can’t see what you said ‘wrong’ tbh!

This is reminding me more and more of watching a group of about 4 chuggers last week and the techniques or behaviour they were using to try to stop people in a pedestrian zone to persuade them to sign up to something. In case anyone's wondering, they were all young and attractive, well dressed. 1 women and 3 men.

One of the men periodically clapped a few times while walking around, with the effect of making people look up or round and therefore make eye contact.

There were the usual 'Oh, I like your scarf!' 'Just a moment/ You look friendly..' approaches. When you said 'No/Sorry/No thanks' it led to attempts to keep in conversation with you even while you were trying to evade.

I'd say it was almost guaranteed that persisting beyond clear indications that you didn't want to continue a conversation or be distracted from the activity you were already doing, was a way to make someone feel even more like they did not want to talk to you, or stay in a position for you to keep doing that regardless. Whether what was going on was selling household contracts or trying to chat someone up.

This site is full of those. It's transparent.

women are raised, socially expected to be ‘ladylike’ - polite, compliant, friendly, to except the advances of men politely.

I haven't been though. Except to respect my elders in general (that's definitely a dying tradition these days) surely everyone is raised to be polite to everyone?

I mean he's a person he's not just a bit of dirt on your shoe. If women did the approaching would you be fine with a bloke telling you to "sling your hook" or whatever? It's just basic respect for other people, nothing about bowing down to male entitlement to debase yourself by being polite. I'm only ever rude to someone who is rude to me first so I'd probably react the same way as a bloke if I put myself out to be friendly to another woman and got a rude reply.

The standing over, putting his coat over the back of her chair… all meant to be intimidating!

I wouldn't like that for sure.

Yes, this is particularly incel-like. Which makes sense.

And people who make ludicrous sweeping statements like this are really just projecting who they themselves are, namely, the ones who care a ton about looks.

If both men have in fact been rejected then why would the ugly one be so upset then?

Thanks for the considered response but my examples do not include men who persist after rejection.
They are about two respectful men who leave the woman alone after being told no. One of whom is ugly, the other is good-looking.

I do appreciate that it's downright creepy IF they hang around after being told to go away regardless of what they look like.

What in the blazes does the halo effect have to do with the OP, Quint?

Creepy bloke hovers over her, tries to stake a claim to her space with his coat and doesn't follow the crystal clear social cues. Who gives a stuff whether he's got good cheekbones or not? He trespasses over her boundaries and therefore is a creep.