To think there will never truly be a sisterhood because too many women are still competing for male attention?

I agree.

I get angry with anyone being sexist, same as I do with people being racist, or ageist or ableist, or homophobic, or treating anyone as if they are 'less' because of the way they were born.

I'm considerably over 50 but don't feel the need to support someone "because" they are a woman. If I can support good people, then I do - by speaking up, or in practical ways, or by commenting in discussions, but I value human beings as individuals, not thinking that because someone is female they are right, or 'good' or even that they need support.

YABU.

Actually, despite my previous post, I think the sisterhood could be taken to mean that feminists support all women who are being harmed because they are women, regardless of if you like them or think they are massive twats or if they hate feminists. So you would still fight for their rights, dignity and not to be harrassed because they are women. It doesn’t mean you like them or would support them outside these parameters.

What bitter world do you live in?

I don’t think it’s normal or healthy to think like this at all.

When I see a beautiful woman I think, ‘wow she’s stunning!’ And enjoy looking at her.

When I meet someone richer than me I just think, ‘they wanted to work harder than I did’.

This.

In my almost 50 years i've never met a man who gave a shit about women eyebrows but the 'wrong' kind of eyebrows inspire thousands of SM post by women.

I’m not really interested in belonging to any kind of sisterhood. I try to treat everyone with kindness and respect regardless of whether I share their gender.

I judge people based on their character and sadly I know plenty of women who are massive twats and I’ve no desire to ‘build them up’.

The sisterhood is an aspiration in some feminist circles, part of the problem in others, and just not part of the equation in most.

That's the thing with feminism - it's an umbrella term for dozens of ways of viewing the problems faced by girls and women and potential solutions, many of them at odds with each other. For most, I don't think sisterhood is as aspiration so saying we're 'meant to uplift each other' isn't going to ring true for many, whether or not they view themselves as feminists.

By “sisterhood” I mean something closer to women supporting each other, not viewing each other as rivals and not centering male approval in how we treat each other.

Those are three separate things that are being treated as inherently connected. They are sometimes, but it's not as inherent as the posts sounds.

Just because I'm not supporting another woman doesn't mean I view them as rivals or centreing male attention. Just because another woman doesn't support me, disrespects me, or is otherwise negative towards me doesn't mean she views me as a rival or doing it for male attention.

Just because someone treats me as a rival doesn't mean they don't support me in some areas or are treating me as a rival for male attention. I work in a female-dominated workplace, I have had colleagues who viewed me as competition against themselves, their friend, or their mentee - I have been in direct open competition with some of them at times - but they still supported me in other work. Life's complicated like that.

Just because I prioritise certain men over most women doesn't mean I would treat another woman badly, just like my prioritising certain women over most men doesn't mean I would treat another man badly. We can seek another person's approval or prioritise their happiness over another's without being an ass about it.

As for "sisterhood" it's more like solidarity with other women who've had to endure the patriarchy. Doesn't mean unquestioning support for every other woman. It does mean that when I see another woman thriving, I don't feel threatened.

The kind of women who think life is this sort of tedious status-jockeying competition are just twats. So are the men. Doesn't matter if they think they're competing for female or male attention, doesn't matter if it's "hard-wired" or "biological" or whatever nonsense people come up with to excuse themselves. It's supremely twattish behaviour.

Luckily it's not inevitable, and it's definitely not inevitable to end up in a social circle where it's the norm. It's not something I actually encounter much in everyday life because I literally chose people who didn't act in this way to be my friends.

I think the sisterhood had travelling pants?

I do too. I think it implies I’m never allowed to think a woman is a grade A arsehole, because that’s not supportive enough.

I also don’t like the idea that it’s other women’s responsibility to “raise me up” like some sort of Josh Groban tribute.

One of the Borg.

I hate the term sisterhood. I feel that it takes away my autonomy.

And that am expected to wear dungarees. I dont know why dungarees, it's just what that word summons up in my head.

Can you be any more patronising?

I don't believe in sisterhood for a second, what a lot of nonsense. Just because we happen to have been born with a vagina doesn't make us "sisters", we are individuals, and so are men as it happens.

But reducing the normal human dynamics to us "competing for male attention"?
Please. That says a lot about YOU, nothing about some nonsensical sisterhood. You might be in a bubble competing about insecurity and need for male attention, that 's far from the reality for most of us.

Thankfully, female AND men show respect and solidarity towards each others. Some do, the rest .. you can find a lot of them on MN 😂

meh - you can discuss it all you like.

In the meantime i will carry on doing everything i can to get equality, preserve equality and boost equality wherever i can. And if that means supporting, say, a woman's business? yep i will do that if what they are selling is good. etc etc

I agree with this and think the same of men. It is all about competing with male ideas of masculinity. Men value strength and wealth and status. A lot of women (while appreciating physical attributes they find attractive) want a man who is thoughtful and supportive, can be an equal partner. When women express this they are shot down by men not by other women.

Attacking the OP rather than seeking to answer the question is, in my opinion, a very lazy form of discussion. Shame on you lazy PP’s.

So OP YANBU but I am firmly on the side of it being a biological imperative.

The reason to uplift individual women is the idea of solidarity Women as a class are disadvantaged as a class, so for an individual woman to uplift another individual woman, as a principle, and if done at scale, helps to rectify problems on the ground as well as raising awareness of the systemic issues that need to change.

It is not the same as saying I, as an individual woman, always really like or rate the other individual woman A B and C more than I do the individual men D E and F, so I choose to take their side even when they are being twats.

As an individual, you can (indeed should) weigh up whether it is better to act out of principle towards solidarity EVEN WHEN the individual woman B is a pain in the neck, or whether you decide that individual man F, on that occasion, is more worthy of your support than individual woman B. You might want to take into account other intersectional issues like class, race, age or personal issues like what you know of the skills, attitude or motivation of both B and F.

However I think it is the responsibility of educated women to question their individual motivations on these occasions - "Is there any internalised misogyny in my preference of man F over woman B? Am I holding them to the same standard of behaviour?" And if you go against the principle of solidarity, be satisfied why you are doing so.

The trouble is that many of us find it really hard now to apply general social principles and philosophies like solidarity to our everyday lives because our culture is steeped in individualism and we genuinely believe there's a level playing field and we all make pure choices. On mumsnet over 20 years I have been constantly surprised and appalled that people can't feel their own individual preference in their minds whilst also considering that the reason we hold our views may be socially conditioned. We're often really poor at considering insights about mass scale statistical impacts and applying them to our individual decision making.

This is also because our education system is not fitted for the modern world and does not educate us about what we can learn from both statistical information and qualitative information; also not enough on philosophy, rights and the nature of solidarity- potentially because it is not in the interests of capitalism, colonialism or patriarchy to teach us any of this.

You're surrounded by the wrong women if you think they're trying to compete with you. We're definitely not all like that.

It's just dog eat dog, IMHO.

Women hate women who are better looking than them, men hate other men who are taller.

And obviously everyone hates people who are richer, better educated etc

The sisterhood doesn’t exist when you have a family, because you’re always going to put the interests of your own economic unit against those of women collectively. Take for example part-time working and prioritising a husbands career - it’s brutal for expectations on other women in the workplace because good looks like a man with a wife at home. But when did you ever hear about a woman returning to work so that she can ensure her husband takes equal responsibility for child rearing and employers learn that its something all workers do and not just women.

As someone who has been involved in feminist women’s groups for a long time, the lack of sisterhood comes from ideological and political in-fighting, not from who wants to shag what man.

I don't think there's much of a "sisterhood", any more than there's some special "brotherhood" amongst all men. Some women are essentially good and will help another woman when they can, others aren't honestly interested in anyone but themselves, same as with men. And for that matter, we can uplift people of the opposite sex, too, with no ulterior motive. (ETA: And yes, there are some women I have no interest in helping, because they're awful or simply not someone I like. I hope I'd still do my basic duty toward them in a life or death situation, but I'm not sparing them much thought on a daily basis, if I'm being honest.)

All people are competing with one another at some level, under some circumstances, and we're all only human, full of flaws that are difficult to overcome. If anyone's hoping for a sacred sisterhood that means women will always put the well-being of other women above their own basic needs and desires, they're in for a disappointment.

I keep hearing about “the sisterhood” and how we’re all meant to uplift each other but I don’t really see it in action.

Well I didn't get the memo.

What about women you have absolutely no respect for?

Are we supposed to 'uplift' them too because they were born with a vagina?

Are you quite young, OP?

I am actually socially rubbish, and don't have a strong female friendship group. However, looking around, I see only positive support between women, rather than competition.

Lots of mums helping out other mums. And at work, I see successful women supporting others, and highlighting their achievements.

Do you mean women in their 20s side eying each other in nightclubs?

I think it's inherently unreasonable to expect there to be a sisterhood. Some women are awful, some are bigoted, some are just not my cup of tea. I het angry about sexism, misogyny and male violence against women, but I don't feel a sense of sisterhood. I'm not denying that competitiveness over acquiring a man isn't part of what can cause bad relationships and a lack of cooperation amongst women. Of course it is. That's in-built, evolutionary human behaviour and it's not going away. But even without that there wouldn't be a sisterhood imo.

I'm older than that. The sisterhood has always been a meaningless concept to me. I have a a range of male and female friends who I value as human beings.

Perfectly put! Agree with all of this.