NAMALT. Really? Dig deep and be honest with yourself. AMALT

This. And I’ve known a couple of lovely decent men who are married to women who, to be honest are controlling henpeckers and who have to ask their wives’ permission to do anything.

I agree mainly but there is the fact men are more likely to work full time and do more overtime, so they may be equalising the hours that way in some cases.

It seems these studies are not necessarily the full story.

https://www.theguardian.com/lifeandstyle/2025/dec/06/gender-care-gap-are-men-more-likely-abandon-ill-wives-family-relationships

I can see it being more likely though. There are more deadbeat dads after all, though that isn't the same thing of course...

Anecdotal experiences don’t negate statistics, just because you think the men in your life are nice, kind and decent (and they very well might be) it doesn’t negate the fact that men are as a whole incredibly more violent, do significantly less domestic labour and child care even when both partners work full time, are more likely to abandon their sick wives etc.

We have been socialised to accept that the bar is incredibly low for men, if some of these posts are anything to go by, all they have to do is take the bins out once a week, go to work, mow the lawn and do a bit of DIY to be classed as great and equal partners, meanwhile women are doing all the childcare, all the housework, all the cooking as well as working.

I don’t think there’s anything inherently wrong with men, I think they are socialised to be selfish and violent and we are socialised to be understanding, selfless and to minimise and accept this.

This is my major issue with threads like this - if AMALT (ie they are all the same/bad/useless) then surely the counterpoint is that all women are bitches/moody/fill-in-whatever-misogynistic-trope-you-fancy?

You can’t decide men are one generically-tied group with identical values and behaviours and not - logically - say the same of women. I have known some utterly toxic bitches in my time (my mother), so would hate for ‘men’ to decide they were typical of the class of women and attribute their behaviours to me by the mere virtue of my having ovaries and boobs.

I’ve known a few men over my 50+ years who were bastards or idiots, but 90% of them have been lovely, decent, flawed, and normal.

Such a thoughtful, pragmatic response which I feel hits closely to what is the reality for many of us.

I think generally men are more selfish and put themselves and their own needs first, especially in every day life. I dont know if its a survival instinct or social conditioning or what, and there are always exceptions, but statistics show that men are much, much more likely to abandon a sick or dying partner for example. I know that NAMALT stands for not all men are like that, but to me it means nearly all men are like that.

This!

Exactly!

Thank you. Can I ask re 'domestic load' - beyond housework, what kinds of things are you referring to?

Then we're sorted cos Tony does bedtime, he does dinners, he makes lunches, he can use the washing machine and the tumble drier and the kitchen sink. He isn't perfect, but neither is his wife but I think, if all men are like Tony, we're doing ok as a species.

I have a genuine question for those who are absolutely convinced all men are just simply bad, useless, etc:

You despise these bumbling morons so much, your husbands, your incompetent dads, idiotic male coworkers, in-laws, what have you, and just claim that all of us are just simply like that. We are just that way, so it seems... Do you not think that you are minimising these men's own responsibility in being lazy/not caring/moronic if you just think all of them are like that? You have a problem with the way they are, and yet you don't make them personally responsible, by your definition, it's not really on them, they are just born inferior, alas.. Don't you think you should target them specifically with your issues with them, instead of making everyone else take the burn for their downfalls? Don't marry incompetent man-children, don't have kids with someone who couldn't keep a houseplant alive...I don't know what to tell you.

And another thing: I would never ever question anyone's friends being so amazing, strong, capable and funny women. I bet they are, I believe that. But can you take a minute and consider that you can only view them through the lens of a friend? You think they are perfect, superior even, a superwoman - as her friend. You have no idea how it would be to live with them as spouses. This is important to consider. And all these women being married to lesser men, who are average at best - what is the solution? Bob should stop being average? Should he do better? Leave him if he is such an incompetent fool, unwilling to meet you half-way.

The problem with generalisations is that almost every aspect of our lives are nuanced, and yet, talking in general terms takes out all the nuance about the topic.

Absolutely nobody is perfect, or more superior to the other sex.

My partner takes the rubbish out, stacks the dishwasher without having it pointed out, helps me change the bedding, will mop and clean all on his own like a proper grown up. Seems perfectly normal to me. Maybe it's because he was a single father for years but I do sometimes wonder what women find attractive about men who can't adult successfully on their own without instructions. Isn't it like constantly living with a teenage boy?

also this

This.

Do you mean physical abuse? I assume you don't mean CSA?

I think that many unsupported men can be conditioned by all sorts of factors: their parents (especially their Dads), their school friends, co-workers, team-mates Etc.
My In-Laws were great, but the culture of their generation has no place in today’s society, so DH has had to unlearn a lot of the ideas and prejudices that his parents brought him up with.
His co-workers were, I’m sure, all very nice people, but in a workplace dominated by men (physical engineering, and heavy work) you are always going to find a few unreconstructed characters, and sometimes, less-than-pleasant comments that he’d been around, came out of his mouth, too. However, I’ve never been shy of pointing out sexism, misogyny or racism to him, but not angrily, just as information.
Since retiring, he has had more time to listen and take on board more modern ideas, as exposed by our DC, and to be totally fair, as I still work, he has taken on a huge proportion of the housework Etc. as well as having the time to get on with improvement jobs around the house.
I’m proud of him: he has just taken our DD out on a walk with our DDog, and is treating her to a lovely coffee to brighten her day (unfortunately she is currently suffering with crippling depression, but he has managed to persuade her to get up and go with him).
I would also be the first to admit that I am not perfect: he has also gently chided me if I’ve said something hurtful, and I rely more and more on my DC to update me on “modern” stuff like gender issues Etc.
We all have to understand that we are not perfect, but that we should always be willing to change, and can, with the right support.
Sweeping statements like NAMALT don’t really help on their own if you want to change people’s perceptions: instead, discussing the term with the men in your life can be a really good tool for change, using a little understanding, and concentrating on those closest to you to keep their mindset on-track!

I don't understand, women aren't perfect either. Who's expectation is it that oen should be?

Do you have kids op? Sons? Are you raising them to know they're genetically useless and inferior to women?

I have never in my life plumped a cushion. Does this mean my femininity is at risk?

I don't need to be honest with myself and nor do I need to worry about all the men around the world. I struggle to muster up the meerest smidgeon of concern about it.

If its a concern to you, @NoEggs then you're the one who needs to be honest with yourself about your relationship and find someone you can be happy with if you're discontent with who you're with.

This absolutely.

If it's so tiny you barely notice when you're doing itself, is it really a slog? Your list is a weird mixture of jobs that take lots of time, and really unimportant minor things.

washing, cleaning, food shopping, cooking, wiping down surfaces, cleaning floors, picking up dirty cups, plumping up cushions, hanging up coats, tidying away shoes

Washing what? I do the laundry (because I WFH) and find it extremely easy. I do the washing up because DP does all the cooking.

Cleaning - I clean the kitchen (because DP does all the cooking), we take it in turns to do the bathroom, DP does occasional deep cleans because he's a lot more fastidious than I am.

Food shopping - depends on what we need, what we're cooking, what time we have. Often we'll divide and conquer - you can so rarely get everything you need at one shop these days so one of us goes to one, the other goes to another

Cooking - he does it all. 100%. I can't cook.

Wiping down surfaces - we're definitely repeating jobs just to extend the list here because this is "cleaning" to me

Picking up dirty cups is not a job. They find their way to the kitchen eventually. If I'm starting the dishwasher I might do a sweep of other rooms which takes under a minute. Other than that this does not occupy my mind.

Plumping up cushions - if I think about it, this probably falls to whoever's hoovering the living room (and thus sofas too). I don't consciously plump them so much as just hoover them? Anyway we divide hoovering equally and I've no idea what DP does vis-a-vis the cushions (nor do I care tbh).

Hanging up coats - everyone deals with their own coats. I don't care if they're hung up or not. A coat on a chair doesn't bother me. It's probably mine anyway.

Tidying away shoes - hahahahaha this is probably the habit of mine that annoys DP the most. I kick off my shoes when I get in and that's good enough for me. DP has this thing about shoes having to be put AWAY. I've upped my domestic game a lot in the past decade but this one is yet to take. You will notice that in this case, it is the man who notices and cares about this issue and not the woman.

My husband currently does all the laundry. We share the cooking. He probably also cleans up more. I may do more child related admin and organising. We share nursery pick ups. He gets the kids ready in the morning whilst I get ready as he doesn’t have to do make up etc. He’s actually probably doing more than me atm. It swings and roundabouts and other times I’m doing more than him. Why do all these people who complain put up with it?

I hate to break it to you OP but the vast majority of inventions in this world that has made life easier have been made by men.

If you're just posting to have a moan about stuff like they're not much good at housework and childcare in comparison to women (generally speaking) you may, however, be right.