Cat versus human a&e

I took my daughter to a&e at 4am in the morning. We were seen within about 10 minutes. She was then referred to two different types of consultant. We had a call from one consultant the following day and an appointment the following week. We had another appointment with a different consultant two weeks later.

My son collapsed and was taken to a&e. He was seen immediately monitored and given an ECG. He was transferred to another hospital and had an ICD fitted the next day.

Pets will get treated quicker, the number of pets treated daily would be massively lower than the number of humans treated daily

I'm biting on this because it's where the system is an absolute arse.

In 1990 I had graves disease, treated with a sub-total thyroidectomy so necame hypothyroid which is a condition exempt from prescription charges. That means for 30 years, I paid for no prescriptions at all, not for AB's, not for elective HRT, etc.

Then DH and I turmed 60, mid 60s now and DH is still working f/time, me still p/time, and both on very high incomes. Free prescriptions.

Personally I think the time for means testing has come. I am prepared to pay something extra but in return I am not prepared to be treated the same as everyone else because frankly, the NHS seems to treat everyone as though they are a piece of sh1t and that is the issue.

To be fair, in the last three years, mother has had a TAVI for acute aortic stenosis (and associated tests and follow-ups), £15k, a nasty bcc removed from her nose involving 70 stitches which is now perfect, medication for anxiety and consultations for tinnitis/dizziness which has caused slowing down and loss of confidence and recently an MRI in response to the development of a tremor to invesrigate Parkinsons. It isn't Parkinsons, it's a meningioma and there's evidence of a number of silent strokes. I've no idea what's been spent on her in the last three years. I do know there have been multiple cancelled apppointments and rudeness and kindness have been provided in equal measure. I also know the letter she was sent last week should never have been sent to an 89 year old lady without an initial appointment to break the news. All these symptoms were there pre the heart condition. 50 years ago, she'd just have faded and been none the wiser. She'd be dead now. Now she probably has two to three years of cognitive decline, a proud lady will end up wetting herself................. Quite separately, however, if she'd had a full once over before the heart surgery, she'd likely have said no and it's a shame the NHS doesn't treat the whole person. It's a shame the NHS can't say "Mrs x, we can offer a full body scan, it's £6k prior to your decisions. Many of us would pay it. It all seems a bit cart before horse and much more could be done to facilitate better decisions.

Now if mother were one of my cats, there would come a time when kindness rather than futility could be exercised and they woukd give me a hug and send a card.

No system is perfect but the NHS does do well on many dimensions used to evaluate health systems. The Danish system is similar and works better because its funded better. Plus they are strict on where you go to seek care - if you are given an appointment by 111 equivalent to go to A&E you will actually be seen quickly. If you just turn up, outside of an absolute emergency, you'll wait ages

As an English person living outside of the U.K. it is always interesting to me how much more British people who have never lived outside of the U.K. rate the NHS compared to those of us who have lived under other healthcare systems.

That isn't to say it is bad... it has some amazing points - most obviously and notably the fact that it is free. But when I'm back in the U.K. it often feels like it is treated as a theoretically perfect healthcare system that is only let down by the pesky government not giving it enough money...

My worry is that this over-confidence ends up obscuring the fact that it does have some significant problem (and advantages) when compared to the huge variety of other systems that need to be addressed.

I would absolutely say that one of the biggest issues the NHS has in comparison to other partially paid systems is the wait times. I'm always shocked when talking to my U.K. family and they tell me about appointments that lead to booking "tests" and procedures which they then have to wait weeks or months for. Where I am, we would have to pay a small amount for each test, but the tests are often same-day, or at works same-week.

Surely there is a middle ground? Where those who need it can get it free, and those who can pay, pay. I know this offends people on principle, but in practice from what I've seen outside of the U.K. it can raise standards for everyone.

Does it feel uncomfortable that some people pay more for better flights? Yes. But in doing so their fees subsidize the entire flight and enable such plentiful and cheap options that we all use.

If, hypothetically your choice is:

No paying, everyone waits 4 weeks...

Or

Rich pay = done tomorrow
The money is fueled into lowering free wait times
Non-paying = done in 2 weeks.

Yes you have created a 2 tier system, but as in most industries, the 2 tier system results in the lower tier actually getting a better deal than if it is all entirely equal.

(and this isn't even a good example, because we already have a 2 tier system, just at the moment all of the profits go into the hands of private medical companies rather than back into the NHS where they could be used to raise the free standard)

So yes, I think you are roughly right OP. But you won't be popular for it in the UK.

100% agree

The NHS is a disaster. Everyone I know is going private when possible. I feel for those who can’t afford it.

in fact the NHS is fucked.

im in Scotland so SNP’s fault here.

Went with a heart problem….quite serious….thats what 99% of people attending ED say! Lost count the number of times people turn up and book in with chest pain etc for it to turn out to be abdo pain, arm injury, foot injury etc. that’s what triage is there for….to help work out peoples actual presenting issues, start investigations like ecg, bloods….then you wait to be seen in priority of who is the sickest. The long wait to be seen would suggest your relative wasn’t critically unwell and was able to wait.

im also not sure how you can compare a cat population with the human population especially those cats requiring emergency care at 4am!

absolutely not the same at all.

In NZ it’s easier I think to move between public, private and somewhere in between, which I appreciate. Our public healthcare system is stretched, underfunded and understaffed.
It’s not a bad thing having the option of paying if you want to and are able to. For example, if my child breaks or injures something I can choose to take them to a provider where I have to pay much more of the costs or I can go to A&E and pay nothing. Rather than thinking of it as jumping the queue by paying, I think it actually helps as it reduces the queue for those who can’t pay if I go somewhere else. In an ideal world we wouldn’t need two system, but we do.

And what does this have to do with the NHS?

I will be opening a cat shop in walton soon for accesories

The NHS is NOT FREE.

For most citizens of the UK,
we just pay for our health care in a different way.

However, I suppose once someone is an independent adult, but because of an awful disability, or illness, that cannot be cured, or managed well enough, some people will appear to have free health care for the rest of their lives. But, even then, it is not free, it is just that the number of full tax payers are unfortunately, and scaringly, dwindling.

I believe that the growing lack of tax payers in the UK is due to quite a large variety of reasons, some of which are actually caused either directly, or more often, indirectly, by whatever Government we have in power at any given time.

There is neither the time, nor the space, in a 'normal' Mumsnet thread, for a worthwhile debate about the failure of the NHS, or the rights or wrongs of people like the OP, @catmummy22's desire to be able to pay extra amounts of money to the NHS in order to get preferential treatment. But while I have the opportunity here, I feel the need to tell you OP, that I think your attitude is very selfish, and should not have the ability to succeed in a democratic and caring society.

That doesn't mean that I believe in a fairytale communism, as I certainly don't. In many areas I think that the greater effort someone both legally and morally puts in to advance or maintain their own place in society, such as significantly more hours of physical and/or mental efforts than the average person does, and especially if their extra efforts enhance the lives of all, or at least most of the the society they live and work in. It would also be necessary that their extra income/lifestyle didn't detract from the less able members of their society's ability to have their basic human needs met - as judged by the society they live in, in today's modern day world - eg in the West, to have enough food, heat, roofs over their heads, clothes on their backs, education, health care, and whatever else is the norm for the society they live in, such as smart phones, TVs, fridges, cookers, etc etc etc.

So, as a person myself of very limited means - I am a pensioner who only receives the state pension, and a monthly PIP payment - I think that if all those conditions are met, then yes, they should be able to be awarded with a higher salary, and a more comfortable lifestyle - within, of course, certain parameters. I don't begrudge any kind, moral, hard-working. person being able to live in a much larger house than my terraced 2 up 2 down, plus a bathroom, home, and I don't begrudge them exotic foreign holidays, after all, I can visit nearly all of the same places through my TV, or mobile, screen! I don't even mind them having private health care for many things, but not for emergency care, and not if them having, say, a private hip operation, means that someone less fortunate (in monetary terms) has to forego, or even delay, receiving lifesaving care.

Human beings have a great many differing strengths and weaknesses, including far ranging individual amounts of aptitude, intelligence, memories and recall, to name just a few. We - human beings - encompass en masse, a great many other qualities, many of which can be beneficial to us as a whole, but also many that are only of benefit to themselves, and maybe a select few others. In my opinion, the main problems arise when a person's actions benefits only themself, or just a very small group of people important to them, and in doing so, also makes many other people's lives so much harder. @catmummy22, if you were allowed to pay extra money into the NHS to benefit yourself, and maybe a few others within your own circle of relatives and friends, in times of personal emergencies, that would have a very hard and harsh effect on so many of the rest of us. Please put more thought into your desires, and how they affect the rest of us. Of course I, and everyone else, should live by that last request as well as most of us are probably guilty of selfish behaviour at times!

I only started this post to say that the NHS is not FREE, which unfortunately, is typical me, sorry! 🙄

quoting you, you really wish you could pay 350 to be seen at A&E? Felines (and animals) aren’t humans so not sure why you are advocating for your cat to be treated in the same way as an ill child or adult

i agree it is the shortage of beds that is one of the main problems in A and E. DH recently spent 36 hours in A and E waiting for a bed on the ward. Triaged and seen promptly but bottleneck for beds. Also agree that it is the lack of joined up thinking regarding care after discharge. I was recently in hospital and the elderly lady in the bed next to me had been there months as there was no where suitable to discharge her to.

I certainly wouldn’t like the American system. So many people, even with insurance, who end up bankrupt because of the costs.

& you do realise that if your cat suffers the same illness again it won’t be covered in your insurance classed as pre existing illness. So the next time you would have to pay the whole £350.

We can put cats to sleep when their quality if life is poor.
Humans not so much.

And what about those who just wouldn't go until it was too late because they were worrying about the cost so much.

One of the reasons the Welsh Government brought in free prescriptions was that it costs more in the long term if people don't get medication because they can't pay for it. A hospital stay is considerably more expensive!

It seems so.

Also, some people attending A&E are in no state to be giving payment when they turn up. What happens to them?

I get where you're coming from - a vets seem to be far more efficient than a hospital. But I guess at the end of the day, we choose to have pets and therefore accept the potential costs that come with them.
I'm not sure how it would work for people who can't afford it. It should be assessed depending on severity.
Honestly I'm not sure what the answer is because also waiting for 12 hours in a&e isn't ideal either. I would however like the option of paying for certain "luxuries". Own room/tv/food etc to make any stay more palatable. But basic healthcare of course should be available to all.

So you want to jump the queue and be seen before those who are triaged as being in greater medical need?

I think what you’re outlining will happen sooner or later: insurance based access fees to see doctors. The NHS needs massive investment, as does education - where exactly the money will come from is the sticking.

That's not my experience when I worked for the NHS During the Major / Blair years

Because that's what happens with the NHS. It's mostly the same doctors doing NHS and private healthcare. This is incredibly simplified, but it goes something like this...

Mr. Poor has a lump somewhere odd, he can feel it and it hurts. He picks up the phone to book a GP appointment. He's given one for 3 weeks time. The GP is concerned it may be cancer and sends Mr. Poor for a scan on the "2 week" cancer-pathway, his scan appointment is for 6 weeks time. The scan shows he needs a biopsy. His appointment is for 2 weeks time, but is cancelled without explanation by the hospital, who rebooks is for a further 2 weeks time. Mr. Poor has his biopsy and is booked in for an appointment the following week to get the results, where he is told he has cancer. He needs to see Dr. CancerCure. The waiting list for that is 4 weeks, partly because Dr. CancerCure only works Mon/Wed/Fri (he sees private patients Tue/Thur and has the weekend off). Mr. Poor sees the doctor and starts cancer treatment the following week. It has been 19 weeks from booking a GP appointment to starting cancer treatment.

Mr. Rich has a lump somewhere odd, he can feel it and it hurts. He picks up the phone to book a private GP appointment and is given one for a couple of days time. The GP is concerned it may be cancer and sends Mr. Rich for a scan the following week. The scan shows he needs a biopsy, his appointment is tomorrow and the results come back in a couple of days, where he's told he has cancer. He needs to see Dr. CancerCure.

At this point Mr. Rich has two options. If he's been paying for his care himself up to now and doesn't have tens of thousands available in his pocket for private cancer treatment, he can join the NHS waiting list to see Dr. CancerCure in 4 weeks from now and start cancer treatment the following week. Meaning the time from booking the GP appointment to starting treatment would be 7 weeks.

Or if Mr. Rich has private health insurance he can see Dr. CancerCure next week as a private patient and start cancer treatment the following week. Meaning his time from booking the GP appointment to starting treatment for cancer would be 4 weeks.

People are saying that if there was an option to pay for NHS treatment at A&E they suspect a similar two-tier system would occur with A&E as well, with private patients effectively jumping the queue, lengthening the waiting time for NHS patients and resulting in even more of those NHS patients dying needlessly than currently happens now.

Really? me and my skint mates have never paid £99 for a haircut because guess what, we can't afford it and I have a take away about twice a year because I can't afford it. Is the prevalence of hair do's and a quick scan of recent Deliveroo orders the assessment tool you think should be used to calculate health care costs contributions? "it says here madam you had a cut and blow at Curl up and Dye two weeks ago and an extra large pizza and dough balls from Sloppy Senoritias only last night. That will be £450 for your stiches and Tetnus jab please, and no we don't do Klarna installment plans"

You paying to jump ahead in the queue isn't helping people who can't pay 🤦 It's just creating an unequal system where money gets you better outcomes in life. You've already said you have private healthcare so you're probably already receiving better healthcare / quicker access to services but a&e is for emergencies and people should be seen by order of priority as they are at the moment.