Are we setting autistic children up to fail?

I agree. But thinking back on my own childhood, I would have been considered on the spectrum … childhood was hard but I learned to mask and function pretty well after tricky teen years. Whatever your diagnosis is you need to try to fit in

Its funny because it seems like a lot of things that are now reasonable adjustments for some kids used to be the norm in the 50s. I have spoken with my mum a lot about this as my ds struggles to sit still.

When she was in primary days were longer apparently with good long breaks morning and afternoon as well as lunch for lots of active play. They also had pe most days, not just once a week. And all the children would have a quiet lie down after the lunch break.

All that physical activity woukd surely benefit all the children, not just the fidgety ones? I mean we have an obesity crisis in children, the last thing they need is to be static all day.

Can you please articulate how it is acceptable that a child says rude things 80% of the time because their EHCP says they can? I don't think anyone is helping that child by continuing to let them say what they like, when they like. The child would be better served by social stories about interactions (from nursery age), stock phrases to say that aren't rude, possibly an object (blutak) to fiddle with before speaking, modelled positive interactions at home and in school (obviously staff model them but not very often children see two staff openly interacting).

That child will never be in a meaningful relationship. I'd wager now they will be an abuser and society (and parents) have willingly let that happen.

Parents aren't complaining. 95% send positive emails thanking me for my time, support and help.

I think that the purpose of early intervention is to create coping mechanisms/changes that result in the ability to fit into functional lives as older childran and adults. I think that in certain countries, people are allowed to just give up and live off the state now instead of figuring out how to be part of society, and this will have huge long term implications. I have an ASD child and DH by the way so I am not anti ASD measures, but I look at society 20-30 years ago and wonder how people functioned (at least on the surface) normally enough to hold down jobs, but now just can't. Other countries (not the UK) generally have a better system to provide early intervention, which is hugely beneficial, and it is a shame that the UK isn't financially able to do this for people.

NT people struggle in the workplace too.

plenty of SEN children’s needs not being met, I can’t get on board with a view that’s fine because adult life isn’t easy.

my non verbal child starts mainstream in Sept with an EHCP that only says 10 mins 1v1 a day. There will be chaos for her and the whole class. And I won’t keep her home because I can’t cope with her either.

I think it depends entirely on their interests and skill set, and where they end up working. DH brother works with trains, been working at the same place his whole adult life, great salary and pension. I work for a local authority in HR and we absolutely bend over backwards to support people with reasonable adjustments, though the word reasonable obviously means different things to different people.

There's self employment, the arts, and jobs that require very specific skills that autistic people may very well have. Not every role is rigid, office based etc.

You've been really negative and lacking understanding of how special needs can present throughout the thread. If this is your usual attitude, it's not surprising that children you teach are struggling and parents are complaining.

I think the OP is right. I know several adults with neurodiversity who are now really struggling to cope in the workplace, because they have been told growing up that the world must bend to meet all their needs, and then they’ve got into adulthood to find out that the world just doesn’t work like that. I think they’ve been really let down.

My DDs 17 & 15 both have ASD. I’ll 💯 be encouraging self employment. I don’t think they’d cope very well in stressful workplaces. And their health is their wealth.

The idea that most kids with SEN being able to be educated in mainstream is a massive lie that has had a massive cost on both kids with SEN and those without. The government uses that idea to save money - they don’t care that both kids with SEN and those without suffer in the current educational environment.

While it’s good that your kids got support, support is extremely patchy around the country and I suspect that it will get increasingly worse as educational budgets get increasingly tighter. I suspect that your experience of good school support is far from common and the parents wjo
werent so lucky would be happy with even a bit that your child received.

You mention your kids being in work. I have kids in their early 20s and there was support available in their state school without the need for a formal education plan. I suspect that if they were 10 years younger then they wouldn’t have experienced the excellent support that they received at a primary that was actually OFSTED requires improvement for many years.

The statistics I have posted are easily checked via google if anyone wishes to.

The most recent statistics released last year show 19.5% of pupils have SEN. See here - 14.2% are at SEN Support level and 5.3% have EHCPs, so a total of 19.5%

In 2010, so before EHCPs, it was 20.9% or 21.1% (depending on which statistics you look at - I think it is a rounding issue adding up SA, SA+ and SSEN) - see here - bottom of page 1, 2.7% with SSEN and 18.2% had SEN without statements of SEN, so a total of 20.9% and here bottom of page 13 2010 (21.1%).

In 2005, it was 18% - see here.

Going back several decades to the Warnock report in 1978, “some 20% appeared to need some form of special educational help. This may even be an underestimate…” - see here.

There's a fuck ton of statistics in this thread and not one single person that I recall has actually linked to the source. Are we all just believing what anyone says?

You're assuming that SEN = ND which isn't always the case. 20% isn't just children who are ND.

That number is meaningless because SEN covers all additional educational needs and not just children with an EHCP.
That 20% includes things like speech therapy, support for children with dyslexia etc, not just autistic kids.

This entire thread is full of adults angry at children being different and it's actually disgusting that it's basically being suggested we low key abuse children so they can "fit in" as adults.

You all need to give your head a wobble. Vile.

I agree completely.
20% of children are SEN in England. It's only ca. 5% in most of Europe. The qualifying criteria seem too broad, if anything. What's quirkiness/difference in European school is seen as a problem in English school, leading to a lot of anguish for parents. Maybe it's a cultural difference as well, starting the formal school too early, very demanding KS1 curriculum... Something is wrong somewhere, it's quite obvious if you look at the numbers.

I'd agree that social stories isn't about teaching chidren to mask, but supporting them to develop the ability to see a different perspective and develop emotional literacy. Black and white thinking doesn't mean that a child can't learn to understand these things, it means they may require more support to understand it and develop skills than an average child. Many are actually remarkably good at understanding social rules (rules of any kind), the problem is that they don't understand shades and nuances, and can be more rigid. They can also struggle more when they see that other children aren't sticking to the rules. My daughter is a prime example here. She's socially aware, socially motivated, painfully perceptive at a cognitive level. Has always understood queueing, taking turns, the 'polite' social rules. That's not where the masking damages her. It's her attempting to mask her cognitive deficiency (slow verbal processing) that causes her the biggest problems. She's like a duck paddling furiously beneath the surface. She's developed amazing ways to keep up with others, cognitively, but it costs her dearly, and eventually she's unable to keep up so at that point she shuts down. What she struggles to cope with in social situations is the lack of predictability. Hence, her style of play is quite rigid and well defined - which causes friendship problems because she's perceived as controlling (i.e. she leads play, takes leadership roles because that way she can control the narrative).

What I'm trying to say, rather clumsily, is that masking isn't necessarily predominantly about social skills and learning the rules of social etiquette. It's understanding that social rules can also change depending on context, and learning to adapt to that in an endless variety of scenarios. That takes a ridiculous amount of cumulative effort if your ability to take in information properly is already impaired due to your cognitive processing style.

It translates into things like over-rehearsing and over analysing your input into a meeting as an adult, missing your opportunity to make a good point, being too slow to have impact, perceived as too slow to make decisions in a faster paced environment. Blaming yourself for your deficiencies and failures, rather than an imperfect fit between your skills and the environment.

Completely agree. The more a child with SN learns how to cope with difficult situations, the easier it will be for the rest of their life.

It is a shame that quite often, educators will put in place adjustments to avoid triggers vs teaching how to react to the triggers.

Random example, DS (ASD) has an aversion to bananas, very strong reaction if we eat one, gags just from the smell, etc. When it started, our instinct was to avoid eating these when he was next to us - it felt the kind thing to do. But then what when it happens ‘in the real world’? So, now we sometimes eat bananas at the dinner table, and we give DS tips to focus on something else. He is still disgusted but he knows what is an appropriate reaction in our society and tries to do it because he wants to be able to eat at restaurants, parties, etc and not be laughed at or asked to leave.

Obviously this is a simple example, and meltdowns will inevitably happen with a ND child, I’m not saying make the their lives harder on purpose, but we also need to explain that learning to cope will help them in the long run.

Even as a SENd parent - it doesn’t matter what I say. If a professional says it’s every hour, then it’s every hour.

I don’t decide what access to intervention my son gets, and if I don’t agree with it I need to take that up with OT, Ed psych, whoever.

I don’t however class him transitioning to a different area of the school as a movement break. It’s not an intervention with intent.

There are ways to teach maths and move, and I think you know that.

1/5 is standard nationwide. They get a movement break every hour, but parents argue they need more.

No I can't give every child a movement break in a maths classroom.

Agree with this. The teachers who think outside the box and bring in whole class interventions are probably the ones who have fewer disrupted lessons overall, and a happier and more productive set of pupils.

Also, not all ND children will need movement breaks at the same time, particularly if cognitive pacing is employed effectively throughout the day. Some might struggle with the cognitive load of maths and need a break then, others might find PE is too overwhelming (noise, movement etc) without a quiet time break. But it's extremely unlikely that 6 children will need movement breaks at exactly the same time.

A common misconception is that all ND children struggle with focus and attention for pretty much the whole day. Some will of course. But the reality is that many will have spiky profiles, and keen interests, and are often capable of good attention and focus based on their cognitive preferences. Rather like NT children in fact - which brings me back to whole class interventions utilising a mix of strategies that benefits all children. This then allows for a more tailored/ bespoke approach for the very few remaining children who experience significant difficulties (who should probably be in specialist provision anyway, but the LA says cannot be accommodated).

My dd's pattern recognition and interpretation of visual data is off the scale brilliant (98th percentile). Her processing and interpretation of verbally presentes information drops to 15th percentile. This is due to a mix of performance anxiety when put on the spot and being hyper sensitive to external stimuli. The problem is not her intelligence, but how she accesses the information presented to her. 65% of the population are visual learners. So why is so much classroom information still delivered verbally (though I accept there has been a considerable move recently towards visually aided learning)?

I 100% agree with you.

There has been a massive uptick in the number of employment tribunal claims that involve neurodivgence and failure to make adjustments/discrimination in the work place.

Employers have been incredibly slow in implementing changes that would support their neurodivgent staff and return to work mandates have gone down like a lead balloon.

I think you have a point but I don't think reducing support is the answer.

I'd rather see more support and guidance given to children in how to cope with everyday challenges coupled with putting more support in place for adults who need it (and this is slowly changing, I think. Though there's still a long way to go).

Obviously its not a one size fits all, but I do think we sometimes underchallenge children with disabilities because it seems easier or kinder, when helping them work through challenges and learn the skills to cope better in the future would benefit them more in the long run.

Unfortunately doing this properly is likely to take more time and effort than either over-allowing exceptions, even if they don't help in the long run for that specific child, or just expecting children to 'get on with it', leading to children missing education (either through not attending or because they are too overwhelmed to concentrate).

I may be being obtuse here, but if 1/5 of your cohort need a specific thing, would that not either be an intervention that would be TA managed or the whole class would just have a brief movement break?

It isn’t that difficult to embed that into your teaching - we used to, and the brief spell of everyone moving would be less distracting than some children wandering about and others trying to learn.

If it’s not possible to provide that intervention because of staffing levels, that’s a school operational problem and not a parent problem.

I think this is the crux of it. For an individual student the 1:1 is needed and the movement breaks etc are reasonable. When that cost is multiplied by every child and those reasonable adjustments for multiple children in a class are consiered it becomes very hard for teachers to maintain flow and control of a lesson while meeting all the needs of various SEN kids while educating everyone to a good standard.